I would like to devote a thread to how we can make trades safer and more secure. Please add suggestions here and give your input on any/all suggestions!
One idea that has come up a couple times is to have a moderator "middle-man" as an insurance backup for larger, more valuable trades. Instead of mailing to your trader, you would mail your trade to a mod, along with an addressed and stamped envelope. Your fellow trader would mail to the same mod. One the mod receives both, he will mail the trades. If one fails to send theirs, the side who did send would get theirs back, courtesy of the mod in the middle. The downside to this is obviously slower delivery time (going through a middle man) and slightly increased postage cost. Thoughts?
Suggestions?
I know this is what I will be doing from now on for any trades over like 50 in value because everyone of the "money" trades I've made where with "trusted traders" and I still got jacked for alot of value in cards.
I did also suggest something like an escrow account system in a thread below this called PayPal.
I guess it still comes down to trust, and hopefully you can trust the middle man. :P
I have to say, I did try and get some support for a changed trade system before. I personally believe the trusted traders list is too jumbled up to be of any use, and same with the u trustworthy traders list. For those to be effective, they need one locked thread with one post each, of a list of each trustworthy and untrustworthy trader, respectively. The way it works now is a hassle to go through to find trustworthy people, and to affirm they aren't untrustworthy.
There is a rumour that MetalMadMan has ripped people in the past. I am unsure if this is true or not. If so, I think better administrative action should have been taken. However, without evidence of this fact, I cannot say.
I think to make trading simpler, a middle-man is probably not the best method. I've been trading on other sites for years, and I know that when you have a trade over $40 in value, the best thing to do is put Delivery Confirmation on it. Never, ever, ever simul send with someone who has no references. Even if they seem like nice people.
A middle-man I guess is an ok idea, but I think having the other person send to you first works a lot better. If we had a number next to our names which went up with each successful trade, then that helps out a lot. Anyone with less refs would send first, no exceptions. Even if they are just one trade behind. This is the system that the Magic Online Trading League uses, and I think it needs implementation here.
I'd like to thank the mods for their support through this. Gorzo, you've been exceptionally communicative and helpful throughout this whole process.
I hope the ideas I've proposed sound good to you all. Like I said, other sites use it and I have never (in over 100 trades) had an issue with it. I'm really sad this happened, but I think if we learn from it and construct a better trade model, it won't be an issue in the future.
Quote from: Xaol on January 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AMIt was brought to my attention that MetalMadMan (the ripper who has now ripped me of over $150) was originally banned for ripping. He was then given a chance to redeem himself by the mods.
Do you have anything to back this claim?
Quote from: Piotr on January 20, 2013, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Xaol on January 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AMIt was brought to my attention that MetalMadMan (the ripper who has now ripped me of over $150) was originally banned for ripping. He was then given a chance to redeem himself by the mods.
Do you have anything to back this claim?
I don't know if he dose all I know is someone made a mention that he was "thatoneguyjoey" or something of the like but from what I've seen it's all just speculation
Quote from: Piotr on January 20, 2013, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Xaol on January 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AMIt was brought to my attention that MetalMadMan (the ripper who has now ripped me of over $150) was originally banned for ripping. He was then given a chance to redeem himself by the mods.
Do you have anything to back this claim?
I bumped it in the trade section
Quote from: Piotr on January 20, 2013, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Xaol on January 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AMIt was brought to my attention that MetalMadMan (the ripper who has now ripped me of over $150) was originally banned for ripping. He was then given a chance to redeem himself by the mods.
Do you have anything to back this claim?
He was "thatoneguyjoey" to the best of my knowledge.
thatoneguyjoey was never banned nor was he given a second chance. You falsely accuse mods for wrongdoings. Do you understand this is against the law?
Be careful of rumors and speculation in the written word, for it will more than likely be precieved as confident truth until proven otherwise. The severity of this situation has fueled a lot of this and I would like to kindly remind you that if you dont know it for sure then dont say it or if you do make it very clear that you are unsure of the information.
I like the middle-man idea. I suggest having at least two of them, so one doesn't get clogged up in mail. This could cause mail to be lost among other possibilities. I think three would be ideal, though.
As for addresses, we could have a stickied thread naming the three middle-men, their mailing addresses, how many trades they each have in progress, how many trades maximum each can do at a time, and other useful info.
This would also eliminate the need for the trusted/untrusted trader threads, which are unfortunately very cluttered.
If needed or wanted by traders, maybe we could make a new streamlined trusted/untrusted thread. No idea how this could be done but just putting ideas out there!
Quote from: Piotr on January 20, 2013, 03:17:56 PM
thatoneguyjoey was never banned nor was he given a second chance. You falsely accuse mods for wrongdoings. Do you understand this is against the law?
Edited accordingly.
An idea I had to help prevent this situation from happening again is to make a locked topic, and once a scammer has been suspected, mods can convene and investigate, and if they are found as a scammer, the mods can post the person's real name and maybe a partial address in the locked topic. Just for a reference on who to look out for. I know there's the trusted and untrustworthy traders threads, but as mentioned above, those are cluttered, and doesnt stop someone from just making a new username and ripping off more people, which is the case in this situation.
I know this isn't fail-safe and can be worked around by the person using a PO box or a friend/family member's name and address, but combined with some of the ideas and tactics listed above, trading can possibly once again become as safe as it was in the past.
Keep the mods and me out of it, man. We enforce iMtG Law which have no power outside this forum, as much as I'd like to be otherwise. Otherwise, because there's probably a law in some obscure country like Poland or UK which says I cannot reveal the identity of the thief, or else. Makes sense?
Makes perfect sense, and as I said in another thread where I made this suggestion, it probably is crossing some kind of legal boundaries. But alas, there's no harm in sharing ideas.
I like ideas ;)
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on January 22, 2013, 03:47:58 PM
Makes perfect sense
Well this one I have to disagree with, it makes no sense to me that I'm not allowed to reveal identity of that .loving. .peach. thief.
Hahah. Let me expound further. It makes perfect sense why you wouldn't want to implement the idea simply to avoid breaking any international laws that would allow the so-called .loving. .peach. thief's identity to be protected.
;)
What about an insurance policy. Everyone who wishes to trade pays a one time flat fee of 55$ to ME. They can make trades for 50$ (higher priced trades could be resolved successively after each prior trade is resolved). If either party defaults they forfeit the 50$ and the ability to make any further trades. 50$ is sent to cover the losses of the plaintiff. The extra 5$ pays ME. At any time they may freely withdraw from the trade program and be reimbursed for 50$.
But substitute the "ME" in this scenario with ... Piotr? Coffeevampire? Gorzo?
Oh yeah. Piotr said "Leave the moderators out if this". Maybe Kuberr could watch the money.
What if I went through the trusted and intruded trader threads and made a list on another thread. And everytime a new name is added to one of the threads, I add it to my list for everyone to see?
Nobody would stop you from doing that.
Ok. It will take a while though
Just tossing this out there but if we are all on apple devices maybe the two traders can set up a time where they will FaceTime each other while dropping them in the mailbox Would be a pain but if you guys are really scared can try this. Again just an idea
Idea wise that's cool but don't see it ever happening. Different time zones and schedules make that pretty hard to do methinks.
You could always take a video of filling the envelope with cards and dropping it in the mail. Don't necessarily have to send the videos back and worth. It could just be for insurance in case of something coming up about a trader being untrustworthy. I think that would be the closest thing to guaranteeing a trustworthy trade without having to pay money for tracking fees via eBay, PayPal and whatnot.
If I intend to steal, I will also lie by faking the video.
Exactly. Thieves are thieves. Middle man is the way to go if you are worried.
Yeah this is true. I guess there's really no 100% safe way to trade, besides the aforementioned middle-man service.
Unless the middle man decides to skip out
Quote from: Rass on February 16, 2013, 04:15:31 PM
Unless the middle man decides to skip out
Of course but I'd like to think that those are the middle men have been around long enough to be trusted and you don't have to worry.
No matter how you look at it the middle man is a safer route just a bit more expensive and longer time frame.
Quote from: NyghtHawk on February 16, 2013, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: Rass on February 16, 2013, 04:15:31 PM
Unless the middle man decides to skip out
Of course but I'd like to think that those are the middle men have been around long enough to be trusted and you don't have to worry.
No matter how you look at it the middle man is a safer route just a bit more expensive and longer time frame.
Kuberr was long enough, and so were others. Still, middle man is probably safer indeed. Whether it's economically viable, it's for you to decide.
Since many of you are in Canada, international trades should have some standard as I feel I lost a Stomping Ground in a trade where I recieved an empty envelope. Most likely due to improper packaging and not declaring for customs.
Also, shouldn't most cards be sent in hard sleeves?
Quote from: Muggywuggy on March 02, 2013, 03:44:13 AM
Since many of you are in Canada, international trades should have some standard as I feel I lost a Stomping Ground in a trade where I recieved an empty envelope. Most likely due to improper packaging and not declaring for customs.
Also, shouldn't most cards be sent in hard sleeves?
Was the envelope's seal broken, ripped, or anything else to indicate the card was lost from the envelope in transit? I'll send you a pm for more details about this.
Ideally cards sent in trades should be in protective sleeves, but its really up to the traders. Most people have access to these sleeves though, and I doubt anyone will object if you request your cards be sent in them if the cards are valuable. For cheaper cards though, penny sleeves should suffice.
Envelope broken from side with a perforation that helps open envelope for receiver.
Can provide pictures if needed.
I've had people actually tape the sleeve to the inside of the envelope and all around the outside so its a real pain to open. But it kept it safe.
It's like that annoying hard plastic protector, sure it's a pain to take off, but the item inside is fully intact and protected. I had some scares during the rainy season, one of my envelopes arrived soaked! Definitely a better situation for both parties when better packaging is used.
Is USPS a monopoly?
Quote from: Piotr on March 04, 2013, 05:04:59 AM
Is USPS a monopoly?
Yes, it's a government protected monopoly. I don't know all the details, but its somewhere in the constitution. Congress has the right to create postal service, and no others are allowed to come up without Congress approval. FedEx and UPS are technically competitors, but they aren't allowed to deliver "non-urgent" letters to people, like the USPS is.
Small wonder it sucks, eh.