When an opponent untaps and gains control of karona (during a game of EDH with karona as my commander), does the damage he deal under my opponents control count towards my opponents general damage, or even my own general damage?
It counts as a second general for your opponents.
I had a similar situation where I had gained control of an opponents general and swung with my own an his general. In this case it counted the damage from my general and then did a separate count for my opponents general.
So tl;dr
It creates it's own separate 21 damage count
Really? I'm not really familliar with EDH, but I would have thought that:
903.14a A player that's been dealt 21 or more combat damage by the same commander over the course of the game loses the game. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
Akroma would still be the same commander in terms of damage count. I'm willing to defer to the EDH gurus on this, though.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 04:30:32 PM
Really? I'm not really familliar with EDH, but I would have thought that:
903.14a A player that's been dealt 21 or more combat damage by the same commander over the course of the game loses the game. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
Akroma would still be the same commander in terms of damage count. I'm willing to defer to the EDH gurus on this, though.
I always figured it was like this, too. As far as I'm aware the rules don't specify anything about who controls the commander. But to be honest I've never played with or against a Korona deck, and have no personal experience with her particular mechanic.
But I think it and all {mind control} or {act of treason} effects work like jester says. It's the same 1 commander no matter who controls it, so it would be using the same 21-damage clock.
Thanks guys. Wasn't quite sure how that worked as karona is such an oddball.
but I always thought that since it is not your actual commander there would be two separate counts for commander damage? maybe I'm wrong...
Ruling from MTGcommander.net
If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular Commander during the game, that player loses a game.
This is an additional state based effect.
Commander Damage is cumulative throughout the game; nothing can reduce the amount of damage a Commander has previously done to a player.
Because it is a property of the card and not a characteristic of the game object, a card is still the same Commander even if it leaves the field and returns.
While effects can raise a player's life total, it doesn't reduce the amount of damage previously taken from a Commander. (eg: Beacon of Immortality)
Conversely, combat damage can be reduced, prevented, or replaced as it is taken, in which case it was never dealt and doesn't count towards the total taken from that Commander. (eg: Fog or Captain's Maneuver)
Commander Damage is specific to each Commander/Player pairing, not combined across all Commander.
A player can lose if he or she is dealt 21 points of combat damage by his or her own Commander (ie: under someone else's control).
I like how i dont even understand what were talking about cuz nobodies linked yet.
{karona, false dog}
Quote from: izik99 on September 04, 2012, 07:07:03 PM
I like how i dont even understand what were talking about cuz nobodies linked yet.
{karona, false god}
Lol do you even play commander/EDH
Quote from: Greg54js on September 04, 2012, 07:08:51 PM
Quote from: izik99 on September 04, 2012, 07:07:03 PM
I like how i dont even understand what were talking about cuz nobodies linked yet.
{karona, false god}
Lol do you even play commander/EDH
Nope.
lol then this rule question doesn't apply to you
Quote from: Greg54js on September 04, 2012, 07:04:03 PM
Commander Damage is specific to each Commander/Player pairing, not combined across all Commander.
A player can lose if he or she is dealt 21 points of combat damage by his or her own Commander (ie: under someone else's control).
Yeah, I'm not sure what that bold part means. :-\
"combined across all commander" ???
I think maybe they are saying that it has to be 21 from a specific player's Commander. Like if two players each had {Doran, Siege Tower} as their Commander, their commander damage wouldn't add together. Only 21 points from Gary's Doran or 21 from Sally's Doran.
I still think, if Gary hits you for 10 with your Karona and Sally hits you for 11 with your Karona you should be dead.
But then, I've never played a game of EDH in my life, so what do I know? 😏
Jester it means:
Arnold is playing with {nicol bolas}
Nathan is playing with {cromat}
Arnold casts {act of treason} and swings with both generals dealing 12 regular damage and 7 commander damage with nicol bolas and 5 with cromat.
The different commanders and their damage don't mix together. they each have separate counts
Well, that's not what I meant, but I agree.
Say Nathan, Adrian, and Jules are playing. Nathan has dealt 14 points to Jules with his {Nicol Bolas}, then Adrian casts {Act of Treason}, stealing Bolas and deals 7 to Jules. Would this kill Jules? I think so.
Or would that be a different "Commander/Player pair"?
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 07:45:03 PM
Well, that's not what I meant, but I agree.
Say Nathan, Adrian, and Jules are playing. Nathan has dealt 14 points to Jules with his {Nicol Bolas}, then Adrian casts {Act of Treason}, stealing Bolas and deals 7 to Jules. Would this kill Jules? I think so.
Or would that be a different "Commander/Player pair"?
Different commander/player pair
Okay, but I just think that's weird. 😒
Quote from: BlackJester on September 04, 2012, 09:39:04 PM
Okay, but I just think that's weird. 😒
Yeah it is but commander is a very different format in which standard rulings can get very skewed and distorted
True, I suppose. The 21 rule is one I really dislike for reasons like this. It's just not intuitive. It's like some bizarre twist on poison.
"If my big chief hits you enough times you die. Even if you're at a bazillion life. But if someone {Mind Controls} him, it's like he's a different creature."
Plus, in a seven player game, I now have to track not just on life total but eight (nine If some jerk plays poison. 👿). Not worth it to me. But I guess I should have been there to make the rules. 😁
/rant
I think the wording on this is really ambiguous. "Commander/Player pair" could refer to a pair as the attacking player and a general, or the defending player and a general...
My train of thought is along the same line as jester's on this one. But I can't confirm the ruling, because I honestly don't know. I know how I play it, I know how my meta plays it. But I can see the other side's point, and can understand both sides of this debate. I see no official way to determine which is absolutely correct either, and I'm way too lazy to browse mtgcommander for answers right now haha
Haha Gorzo I agree with you. Personally this is an issue for your meta to determine the right answer
Since WotC offers official EDH, they should have the rules to handle it. The rule above suggest the controller is irrelevant to Commander damage.
I can see it going either way, so whatever works for you.
Quote from: BlackJester on September 05, 2012, 10:30:41 AM
Since WotC offers official EDH, they should have the rules to handle it. The rule above suggest the controller is irrelevant to Commander damage.
I can see it going either way, so whatever works for you.
There is no gavel for this question because it is not truly resolved....
Here are the specific rules from the links at WoC. Updated aug 25th,2012. Hooe it helps:
"If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular Commander during the game, that player loses a game. Details
This is an additional state based effect.
Commander Damage is cumulative throughout the game; nothing can reduce the amount of damage a Commander has previously done to a player.
Because it is a property of the card and not a characteristic of the game object, a card is still the same Commander even if it leaves the field and returns.
While effects can raise a player's life total, it doesn't reduce the amount of damage previously taken from a Commander. (eg: Beacon of Immortality)
Conversely, combat damage can be reduced, prevented, or replaced as it is taken, in which case it was never dealt and doesn't count towards the total taken from that Commander. (eg: Fog or Captain's Maneuver)
Commander Damage is specific to each Commander/Player pairing, not combined across all Commander.
A player can lose if he or she is dealt 21 points of combat damage by his or her own Commander (ie: under someone else's control)."
Since it states that damage is specific to a particular commander each commander damage is tracked individually if used against you. Ie i use a players commander and hit for 10. Then somehow someone else uses that same commander to hit that same player for 11 then commander damage rule results in that player losing.
So have lots of paper handy folks!
Not to my satisfaction, no it isn't.
My problem with the other scenario presented (every time Karona changes it's tracked like a new commander for each player) is that now, in a 7 player game, you aren't just tracking 8 life totals but 43.
If each commander counts differently based on who is controlling it, then you have 7 Commanders potentially controlled by 6 opponents plus your regular life total. (7x6+1=43 for those who need help with math. ;) ).
To me, that's just bug-nutty. Not that it's right mind you, just bug-nutty.
Dammit guys, where's my gavel? So if opponent one smacks me for 10 with my own Karona, and opponent two smacks me for 11 with my own Karona, I lose? Or does each opponent have to hit me for 21 each. Just looking for clarification. Thx for all the help.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 06, 2012, 09:12:07 PM
Dammit guys, where's my gavel? So if opponent one smacks me for 10 with my own Karona, and opponent two smacks me for 11 with my own Karona, I lose? Or does each opponent have to hit me for 21 each. Just looking for clarification. Thx for all the help.
They each have to hit you for 21 with a single commander not a combined 21.
I'm closing this case for now