DEBATE: Skinrender vs Rotting Fensnake

Fensnake-

He's a big enough blocker to take down some bigger creatures with a pump or equipment..

Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 02:19:13 AM

Which limits the snake even more.

Why is that?  It IS a zombie snake.

Right, I know. But by your logic you get the best use out of him in a Zombie deck, essentially. Skinrender is useful in many decks. I use him in my Heartless Summoning deck, for instance.

I'm just not clear why

Well sure, if you're playing a Zombie deck it becomes easier to return. Which limits the snake even more.

I'm just not sure what you mean by this comment, that the snake limited because it is easy to return in a zombie deck?

I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation.  With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker.  Now if I had a Skeletal Grimace in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a Cemetary Reaper for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.

I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation.  With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker.  Now if I had a Skeletal Grimace in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a Cemetary Reaper for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.

I must say that I am a little leary about the fact that you can't cast Skinrender on an empty board though.

Quote from: Gerbil Prophet on November 30, 2011, 02:49:12 PM

I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation.  With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker.  Now if I had a Skeletal Grimace in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a Cemetary Reaper for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.

I must say that I am a little leary about the fact that you can't cast Skinrender on an empty board though.

Fensnake is perfect for an open board

Fensnake is perfect for an open board

Exactly!  If you hit a big board clearing Black Sun's Zenith or Damnation, you'd much rather have Fensnake to follow it up.

Orrrr, it could drop it into the graveyard to be used by Unbreathing Horde and then brought back in by Ghoulcaller's Chant... Quite the opposit of useless! I'm sure using a Vengeful Pharaoh can easily make up for it's lack of blocking anyways I say Fensnake for sure!

One of the points I was tryin to get at with this whole debate was the importance of keeping an open mind and to distinguish between "strictly better" and "conditionally better". There are some cards that are strictly better than others: Runeclaw Bear vs. Ashcoat Bear  for example. For the most part though, card A is better than card B in some cases and in other cases card B is better.  It's often not as simple to say "always use A instead of B". You need to look at the whole deck as well as the play environment.

Addressing reanimate
Why is everyone so enthused by reanimating a 5/1, with the reasons I have stated during my last few comments, wouldn't it be more beneficial to recast a walking removal? With an open board, you wouldn't need to be worried about anything anyways! And with even one creature on ur opponent's side of the board, skinrender gets tremendous value whenever that occurs.

Addressing reanimate
Why is everyone so enthused by reanimating a 5/1, with the reasons I have stated during my last few comments, wouldn't it be more beneficial to recast a walking removal? With an open board, you wouldn't need to be worried about anything anyways! And with even one creature on ur opponent's side of the board, skinrender gets tremendous value whenever that occurs.

Not if they are playing Hexproof creatures: Invisible Stalker, Dungrove Elder. It's ineffective against Inkmoth Nexus.

5/1 you can cast when your opponent has no legal targets is better than a 3/3 that would have to kill one of your own guys.

Another difference between the two is offense versus defense.  5/1 presents a bigger threat to your opponent, and some decks would rather have an aggressive threat than an answer card.  I'm thinking U/B zombies & counterspells for example.   

I find the fensnake to be more annoying to be up against, I end up using removal on it anyways so I won't have to block with my other creatures and basically make them into cannon fodder. So from the opposing side of the field I say fen snake is a better choice.

Which is more likely, a completely clear board for the fensnake, or a board with a few creatures to remove with skinrender?
If you think of skinrender as more of a removal spell that gets added benefits, will you still think it is inferior? Are you people suggesting that all removals are inferior to rotting fensnake?

What I'm trying to say it that under certain conditions I'd rather be playing Fens over Skinrender. Like when I'd rather have a threat than an answer, when I am playing against a creatureless deck, like when I already have enough removal.