Death Gaara's AVR Spoilers and Discussion

I love using gitaxian probe and street wraith for card advantage.  My theory is that you can essentially reduce the size of your deck at the price of 2 life per card.  This premise is based on opting to pay 2 life to draw a card which does not tie your mana up.  This scenario is not too helpful with miracles but I like using these in combo decks to allow me to continually search for those pieces.

Like Death said, cantrips (cards that have you draw one card) aren't "card advantage". This is a specific term that means "having more cards than your opponent".  Using one of your cards to eliminate two of theirs, using one card to draw two, that sort of thing is card advantage.
Cantrips, cards that replace themselves are "deck thinning".  They use your resources (life, mana, etc) to dig deeper into your deck to find your important cards. This is useful in decks that rely on a small number of cards (eg combo decks) and need to find them to win.

I consider playing a cantrip for 2 life as card advantage.  I get to draw 2 cards total in a turn instead of just one without using my mana resources.  I agree ponder is not card advantage since it uses up mana.  Like I said this is my own theory based on the fact that you can draw another card without using mana.  I see the point about one card replacing the other......call it what you want.....drawing another card without using mana is a good thing 👍

Quote from: Death Gaara on April 21, 2012, 08:53:02 PM

Perhaps for my next article, I should explain the theory of card advantage and its applications.

Yes please!

Done!

Given the vast Avacyn Spoilers, do you see control coming back to being relevance? I feel like WotC successfully builds archetypes, and completely destroys them with single cards. (I.e - milling vs. elixir of immortality, Grafdigger's cage) making things difficult, but they do nothing to really stop aggro.

I noticed with all the extremely high costing goodies included in the newest cards, it's gonna be harder to truly stop WW and RDW from getting buffed. Fleeting distraction reprint is one of the more promising cards.

Given the vast Avacyn Spoilers, do you see control coming back to being relevance? I feel like WotC successfully builds archetypes, and completely destroys them with single cards. (I.e - milling vs. elixir of immortality, Grafdigger's cage) making things difficult, but they do nothing to really stop aggro.

I noticed with all the extremely high costing goodies included in the newest cards, it's gonna be harder to truly stop WW and RDW from getting buffed. Fleeting distraction reprint is one of the more promising cards.

As much as I would like to say yes as I am a control mage, the truth of the mater is I really doubt it. One card, Cavern of Souls. Snapcaster is incredibly powerful and flexible. We know this. But it has been brought down a few notches in standard by Cavern. Declaring Giant and making Titans uncounterable is just too powerful against control decks. Counter Magic is not nearly as effective as it used to be. Removal is fine and all, but when you play against a deck like Wolf Run that plays 7-9 titans/threats, it is just too much. Delver won games by sticking a delver, then riding a counter spell or two and a Vapor Snag to victory. This plan is severely hindered now. Snapcasters utility is taking a hit, being only able to flash back draw spells, and removal. The former which just leads you into more dead countermagic. One could argue Ghost Quarter. Lets be honest though, is setting yourself back a land drop really what you want to be doing as a control mage? We must ask ourselves these questions. Yes, we did get some good stuff with Tamiyo and Lighthouse. Entreat the Angels and Terminus are also both powerful additions to our arsenal. But as long as titans are in standard with cavern, I dont see control too playable. The closest thing that comes to mind, is an Esper Sun Titan build playing Snaps, Lilianas, Oblivion Ring, counter magic, some draw and removal. I think control will be a house after titans rotate. But for now, I would stick to aggressive decks, mid range strategies and Wolf Run.

Daily MtG posted a lengthy article about how Cavern of Souls was designed as Snapcaster hate, and how mana leak is one of the biggest mistakes they've made in awhile.

I don't know what they're really thinking. It seems so extreme a measure, it's not like designing Jace hate, or some dominant archetype card hate. Snapcaster could get you to pay 4 for a mana leak, but Cavern of Souls buffs every format, nearly any deck and the intentions of designing a card so powerful is to hate on a floundering deck type...

Maybe I'm just biased, but I see more wolf run and WW every Friday. I'm beating a dead horse, WotC hates counter players, and wishes blue would become all milling.

I get the fact that Creatures cost more, they're stronger then ever, and they do more then ever. It's a point of no return also, hex proof will appear on everything. Spells by comparison are cheap, and can render 8 mana creatures completely useless for a 2 mana spell. The answer is not printing 1 or 2 mana creatures that have spell hate, it's making it more of a strategy game. Giving some drawbacks to counterspells, but making it possible to remove threats reasonably from turn 1 till turn 22.

I feel like they missed the boat on Zombies too, by printing Elite Inquisitor and Spirit Mantle. They take a potential white humans vs. black zombies and turn it into white weenies vs. casual zombie deck made for fun.

Edit: the sky isn't falling. I don't think it's a matter of saying that control is useless, delver spirits and other things exist, but white has mostly every useful removal, artifact destroy, enchantment destroy, board wipe and 1 mana creatures. Snapcaster mage not withstanding (as its one of the more powerful blue cards ever printed), some tournament decks are sideboarding them in favor of other, more powerful, creature cards (esper) pre-Cavern of Souls

TL;DR - Essentially cavern of souls isn't just Snapcaster hate, it's counter/control hate. It stretches back-in-time and hates on Force of Will!

Daily MtG posted a lengthy article about how Cavern of Souls was designed as Snapcaster hate, and how mana leak is one of the biggest mistakes they've made in awhile.

I don't know what they're really thinking. It seems so extreme a measure, it's not like designing Jace hate, or some dominant archetype card hate. Snapcaster could get you to pay 4 for a mana leak, but Cavern of Souls buffs every format, nearly any deck and the intentions of designing a card so powerful is to hate on a floundering deck type...

Maybe I'm just biased, but I see more wolf run and WW every Friday. I'm beating a dead horse, WotC hates counter players, and wishes blue would become all milling.

I get the fact that Creatures cost more, they're stronger then ever, and they do more then ever. It's a point of no return also, hex proof will appear on everything. Spells by comparison are cheap, and can render 8 mana creatures completely useless for a 2 mana spell. The answer is not printing 1 or 2 mana creatures that have spell hate, it's making it more of a strategy game. Giving some drawbacks to counterspells, but making it possible to remove threats reasonably from turn 1 till turn 22.

I feel like they missed the boat on Zombies too, by printing Elite Inquisitor and Spirit Mantle. They take a potential white humans vs. black zombies and turn it into white weenies vs. casual zombie deck made for fun.

Edit: the sky isn't falling. I don't think it's a matter of saying that control is useless, delver spirits and other things exist, but white has mostly every useful removal, artifact destroy, enchantment destroy, board wipe and 1 mana creatures. Snapcaster mage not withstanding (as its one of the more powerful blue cards ever printed), some tournament decks are sideboarding them in favor of other, more powerful, creature cards (esper) pre-Cavern of Souls

TL;DR - Essentially cavern of souls isn't just Snapcaster hate, it's counter/control hate. It stretches back-in-time and hates on Force of Will!

I dont really claim its snapcaster hate. Its more like WotC is covering there ass after their big screw up last season. Control was powerful in the form of Caw if you know where I am going with this. They are trying to make the game more accessible to a wider audience. The new kids want to cast their 6/6 for 6 mana. Whether they are titans or just big dudes with trample. Older players such as myself and many others, know that having a big dude countered is not the end of the world. We lived in a time when the most powerful cards were spells, and the strongest creatures to see the light of day were just goyf and Bob. Some creatures like Wild Mongrel and Psychatog had there run, but the majority of it came down to powerful spells and artifacts. Show and Tell, Dream Halls, Tinker, Dragonstorm, Lightning Bolt, Sensei's Divining Top, Skullclamp, Intuition, Aethervial, Gifts Ungiven, Umezawa's Jitte and Tendrils of Agony all have something in common. None of them are creatures. These are some of the best cards ever printed and yet not a single one is a creature. WotC wants to make the new kids understand the game's objective is to swing at the opponent for 20 damage. Not come up with or play some stupidly powerful spell to win the game. This games power has shifted. People call it a power creep. Those people are blind. Overall the games power did not creep. It shifted its power from artifacts and spells, to creatures. Ever since around Lorywyn (Hello faeries, even though I played you, I dont miss you), the game has become more about powerful creatures (in terms of abilities) than spells and artifacts. This theory is cemented by Shards blocks Bloodbraid Elf, Noble Heirarch, Wild Nacatal, Knight of the Reliquary. Broodmate Dragon, Putrid Leech, Sprouting Thrinax. M10 was also a compliment with Baneslayer Angel. Let us not forget Zendikar's Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic, and Vengevine. We must also look at the Titans and Mrs. Norn. Last season, they felt bad about their screw up with Jace. They dont want this to be a game where you have to use your head and know when to counter spells and play your wraths. They assume the masses that have since joined this game ever since the release of M10 are all brain dead. Lets look at the facts, if you were a newer player and you saw Lord of the Pit next to Stoneforge Mystic which card would you pick up and play? Lord of the pit is stronger, flies, and deals more damage. He must be a better card. That would be your mentality no doubt. Lets look at this example, now you see Lord of the Pit next to Sensei's Divining Top. Same question. Which card do you pick? As a newer player you begin to think to yourself, even the stoneforge was better than the top. The top does almost nothing. At least the stoneforge deals 1 damage. So you as a newer player, have deduced that Lord of the Pit is better than both a stoneforge and a top. Now imagine another player showed you a Black Lotus or an Underground Sea and says its better than and worth more than your Lord of the Pit. You think to yourself, wow, this is the worst card I have seen yet, this guy must be wrong. It does just as much as a land does then dies or it just taps for one of two colors (in the sea's case). It does no damage whatsoever and does not help me win the game at all. But, is this really the case? Of course not. The only time Lord of the Pit ever saw play, was when the game came out and nobody had any idea how powerful black lotus was. This is the mentality WotC is approaching their newer players with.That creatures must be good, and everything else is just okay. They want to keep it that way. That is why the printed a land that hinders control decks and rewards creature decks. This was not an attack against snapcaster, but rather, a land that was made to keep the game flowing in a more aggro oriented environment. This way newer players dont feel left out when they cast their big ass wurm with trample and it cant be countered. The days of powerful spells are over. Yes, jace was a powerful spell, but also a mistake according to WotC. Too much like the days of old. They want creatures to run the game now. This has made some older players mad. I dont really mind though, everything changes over time. Including magic. Nothing can stay the same forever. I wish more people would just accept this and go withe the flow.

You had a really good idea with the Articles, thank you.

You had a really good idea with the Articles, thank you.

No problem, I feel it promotes community discussion. I think this is an important aspect as it helps newer players learn fundamental basics of competitive magic, while allowing more seasoned players to share and debate ideas. I feel this is an important  part of the competitive aspects of the game. The price of progress is to debate. If Christopher Columbus did not debate the Earth was round instead of flat and chose not to set out on a voyage, things would not be the same today. All progress is is a step forward from what is known. We take what we know, put it to the test with debates and other theories, and when it is proven right or wrong, we have more of a grasp on what we hope to obtain. Using this knowledge, we can further ourselves in the game in various ways. There is something for everyone in discussions, whether you are new or old to the game. The only issue is, debating topics is a fine line next to flaming and trolling. When people start being idiots and debating not to further progress, but just to annoy someone else, that is when the line has been crossed. Thankfully, it seems we have a nice community on our hands that is not full of these kinds of people. I think it is nice to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on different matters relating to the game. As we learn things from others, even players newer/older than us with less/more experience than us, we can gain a new perspective. Perhaps in my examples that the new kid likes Lord of the Pit more than Black Lotus, we know for a fact the cards dont compare in power. But what we learned is we now have another perspective on that card. My favorite card in the game is Time Sieve. Is it a terrible card? Of course, losing that much presence is terrible. But it is a card that can shine in its own ways. Even if we have a worse perspective of a card, it is still a new perspective. We can than ask ourselves what do with think of this card or idea now? Do we like it more or less? This is what allows us to progress not only in the game, but as humans as well. Whenever we were children and asked our parents why? we did it because we hungered knowledge (although some of us got a good kick or two just annoying them with the word). This knowledge has allowed us to progress and receive and give our own perspectives on anything. Sure Lord of the Pit may mean nothing to me or you (although I do collect the card lol), but to someone out there, even Black Lotus cannot compare.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your posts, and actually look forward to your opinions (as much as I do your decks).

I think from these avacyn spoilers that counter magic will be VERY specific, and these "catch-all" and "hard counters" will be very costly. Spells like geist snatch, specific spells like outwit, second guess will be the norm for counter magic. They're nice spells to support a blue aggro deck with, but by no means a way to build any tempo.

I will adapt, like most people who love this game. Maybe spells have lived too high on hog, and I am upset when the strategy component of the game I love (the reason I play) is diminished. But I think they've buffed white magic to such an insane degree. White has some of the best control measures, fatties and low cost powerhouses. Blue gets card advantage (and creatures?), Black gets creatures and COSTLY removal...and Green gets ramp and creatures, and red gets minimal burn and creatures...I see your point