Debate thread.

Quote from: Birdbrain on May 10, 2013, 12:31:21 PM

Would you want someone who was already a paranoid scytzofrinik, or that had some other serious mental disease to get ahold of mind altering drugs? Would you want someone who had a violent history to get ahold of mind altering drugs?

If these people want drugs, they'll get them. It doesn't matter whether its legal or not. I can guarantee there's a person with a violent history taking drugs right now, and it had nothing to do with legality.

If people want something, they'll find a way to get it, and they do. The law does not stop this.

By this logic, should we allow stealing? Stealing is illegal but I bet you arm and leg that someone is stealing from someone as we speak.

Would you want someone who was already a paranoid scytzofrinik, or that had some other serious mental disease to get ahold of mind altering drugs? Would you want someone who had a violent history to get ahold of mind altering drugs?

Sounds like the "ticking time bomb" scenario. That scenario has been used to do awful things historically. The truth of the matter is, for every person that would use drugs incorrectly and cause harm, there is a very real number of people who are murdered by drug cartels, scores of people who's income is related to them being illegal and a large number of innocent people who are proxies for the unintended consequences of that drug war.

Quote from: Keyeto on May 10, 2013, 12:39:38 PM

Quote from: Birdbrain on May 10, 2013, 12:31:21 PM

Would you want someone who was already a paranoid scytzofrinik, or that had some other serious mental disease to get ahold of mind altering drugs? Would you want someone who had a violent history to get ahold of mind altering drugs?

If these people want drugs, they'll get them. It doesn't matter whether its legal or not. I can guarantee there's a person with a violent history taking drugs right now, and it had nothing to do with legality.

If people want something, they'll find a way to get it, and they do. The law does not stop this.

By this logic, should we allow stealing? Stealing is illegal but I bet you arm and leg that someone is stealing from someone as we speak.

No, but I believe the two cases are quite different.

In taking drugs, you are doing something to yourself, to alter your state of mind, because it makes you happy, whatever your reason may be. The only person directly influenced by the action of taking drugs is yourself.

In stealing from someone, you are directly harming someone in taking their possessions, which isn't right. In the case of stealing, there is a victim. In the case of my buddy smoking weed or taking shrooms, there's no victim. Sure, he might act funny around us, but I don't  feel victimized by his sudden change in behavior.

For the record, I don't condone drug use, I just don't believe that making drugs illegal has stopped those who want to do them from doing them. I believe it all comes down to morality. If you think drugs or stealing is fine, you'll do it, regardless of how the law feels about it.

For the record, I don't condone drug use, I just don't believe that making drugs illegal has stopped those who want to do them from doing them. I believe it all comes down to morality.

Fair enough. A little bit like 'I disagree with what you say, but I will die fighting for your right to say it' as long as you don't lie

This isnt about what Keyeto said, but more to address what i've heard from people. I think the use of drugs coming down to a "morals" is very dangerous. There are lives at stake, and to suggest its up to individuals to have a mere "preference" for the facts regarding legalization of drugs.

We've got a very morally relative society, where people's "opinions" carry as much weight as others - simply because they HAVE an opinion. It isn't researched, contextualized or full of truth statements. It is just their opinion on the matter.

Certain people feeling that it is not their place to tell the Taliban that their practice of female genital mutilation is "wrong" because that is merely your opinion of the matter. Who are you to tell the Taliban they should not do that for religions moral reasons is? It quite clearly wrong.

There is quite a bit more on the line then someone's "feeling" about the legality of drugs.

It's not a question of feeling, rather a question of fairly simple logic applied to golden rule. Your example has a victim, BTW.

If they become legal, they will be more readily available to them

If they become legal, they will be more readily available to them

I'd take the number of violent, paranoid skitzophrenics having access to drugs legally then the amount of lives ruined over keeping them illegal.

Quote from: Birdbrain on May 10, 2013, 03:21:04 PM

If they become legal, they will be more readily available to them

I'd take the number of violent, paranoid skitzophrenics having access to drugs legally then the amount of lives ruined over keeping them illegal.

Lesser of two evils principle. Also present in iMtG Law as 'breaking the law in prevention of lawbreaking is no good' I mean, the answer to BB's issue.

Tonight I went out with a couple of friends to see my first Star Trek ever. I've fallen in love with Spock, but I'm not him, no worries

Ok, I've just seen my second Star Trek. 37 years in the darkness, FFFFF UUUUUUUU Star Wars. I'm a Trekkie now

Quote from: Piotr on May 09, 2013, 07:43:29 PM

Tonight I went out with a couple of friends to see my first Star Trek ever. I've fallen in love with Spock, but I'm not him, no worries

Ok, I've just seen my second Star Trek. 37 years in the darkness, FFFFF UUUUUUUU Star Wars. I'm a Trekkie now

That's a bold statement! I've been watching Star Trek: Next Generation on Netflix. Great stuff.

This isnt about what Keyeto said, but more to address what i've heard from people. I think the use of drugs coming down to a "morals" is very dangerous. There are lives at stake, and to suggest its up to individuals to have a mere "preference" for the facts regarding legalization of drugs.

We've got a very morally relative society, where people's "opinions" carry as much weight as others - simply because they HAVE an opinion. It isn't researched, contextualized or full of truth statements. It is just their opinion on the matter.

Certain people feeling that it is not their place to tell the Taliban that their practice of female genital mutilation is "wrong" because that is merely your opinion of the matter. Who are you to tell the Taliban they should not do that for religions moral reasons is? It quite clearly wrong.

There is quite a bit more on the line then someone's "feeling" about the legality of drugs.

I really like the way you summed this up. My friend calls our current state of cultural and interpersonal "respect" cultural relativism and I would call it cultural narcissism. In my opinion people have a moral duty to place a value judgement on ideas and opinions (not people, mind you, IDEAS). This helps us develop respect for the value of other individuals and cultures while maintaining a thoughtful and inquisitive world view.  When an idea isn't held up to any standards at all it lacks value. When we fail to question AND consider other's ideals it's a pretty good sign we've failed to question our own and I believe that those two failures account for most of the evils in this world.

First I'd like to say that I love debate posts and if I offend please tell me. Also if I say something that is incorrect please feel free to correct me. As long as your not rude it's no big deal. Also I'm drunk so mods I apologize if you have to edit my drunken profanity. And auto correct is awesome btw. Anyways onto these wonderful debates.
     So first off I'm lost. I was lazy and read the first page and the last page(don't hate).  That being said I'm just going to say random .poo.. I saw someone mention Obama so lets start there. First off I disliked bush as much as Obama so you can't say I'm being biased or any of that wonderful stuff. Secondly Obama is probably one of the worst presidents we have ever had. Yes I know bush was too, no yelling. One of the first things he does is his bull.poo. obamacare. I was literally paying $19.22 a check for my family and I to be on some of the best insurance in the state(working at Boeing has it's perks). But once the effects of the bill hit the pockets of insurance companies my price rose. I now pay $67 a paycheck for the same insurance and my copays have increased. Yeah I know still cheap right? But what about people that are paying more than that? That's an increase of 3.5x the prior amount. Are you serious? Why do we even .loving. pay for medical insurance? It makes no sense. Oh you want to continue to live? Guess that be twelve grand. What!? What is wrong with this country? America we have screwed up bad. Point fingers at all the politicians but we the people are to blame. We could've prevented so much of this but no we had to have a black president just to show people that we are past racism. I'm not being racist in the least either. But so many uneducated Americans saw a black president and voted. Sure our options sucked, hell we .love.ed up giving bush the reigns. But remember they have a lot less power than the House of Reps and Congress. We messed up there too. They allowed the ObamaCare bill to pass. Have you read it? I don't remember the section but it states that the new health care plan doesn't apply to congress or the house so on and so forth! I know that's unconstitutional for a fact! Why did this pass? Because sadly as kanga stated we are complacent and scared of our government. I'm glad I'm a citizen of America but I'm damn embarrassed of how other countries perceive us. And the worst part is that half the perceptions are correct. America is stupid. Well your right. We have some extremely intelligent people here but the general population is dumb. Why? Because that's how they grew up. Do what your told don't question authority. Well idk about you but when authority is screwing me over so they have it better I question. I question why we live the way we do why we allow our children to grow up dumb.  I'm just rambling now but before I leave. Y'all need to check out the Venus project. Sorry for the rant. And good night.

Only needed drunken profanity edits not bad for a long, intoxicated rant! -Gorzo

I was literally paying $19.22 a check for my family and I to be on some of the best insurance in the state(working at Boeing has it's perks). But once the effects of the bill hit the pockets of insurance companies my price rose. I now pay $67 a paycheck for the same insurance and my copays have increased.

You were paying 19.22 for yor family, but you are paying 67 for your family and two other families who don't pay. Wealth redistribution.

Do you support health care at all?

 Keep in mind health insurance is a form of health care, by redistributing risk (and therefore wealth) across all people. Do you support insurance of any kind?

Of course I do, I don't believe I have any right to interfere between the dealings between you and insurance company, unless one of the sides is being done something which they don't want to be done to them, for example if you are *forced* to pay for insurance. I'm absolutely fine with socialism if it is voluntary. I live by iMtG Law.