Copying spells

[Druknal]

Just to make sure I understand. If you pay an additional cost for an better effect (ex. kicker/flashback for the increasing cards).
you copy the improved effect right?
Ex. Cast {Sadistic Sacrament} for kicker then flashback {Increasing Vengence}, if you {Reverbrate} the Increasing Vengence, do you get the two additional copies of a target spell?

So with just the above and how I think it'd work, 75 cards total could be chosen to exile?

And lastly, would that trigger an infinite combo? Just thought of the possibility... Because if you copy the flashbacked Increasing vengence, you'd get two coppies to re copy twice, into four extra copies, etc?

And maybe I'm completely wrong and making no sense. It's what I get for being up for so long.

[scarsabrex]

yes to all of the above.

[BlackJester]

I don't think {Reverberate}ing an {Increasing Vengance} will net you four copies.
Vengance asks "was this spell cast from the graveyard?"  The copied spell was put directly on the stack and so the copied Vengance resolves it will only make one copy and not two.
Some copied characteristics are: rules text, choices (unless the let's you change targets) modes, and additional costs.

In this case, you would get 60 cards: 15 from the original, 30 from the original Vengance, 15 from the copied Vengance.
I'm going to hold off on the confirmation, since I'm not 100% yet.

[Druknal]

Yeah, just wasn't sure how copying off off the flashback functioned.

[Jbombard51]

So if you managed to flashback {reverberation} to copy the flash backed {increasing vengeance} then it would apply?  I'm a little lost on this ruling since to my understanding copying a spell would copy it's current condition being cast, but if that's not the case with flashback, then perhaps the above situation would cause the extra 15 card discard bringing it to 75.

[Jbombard51]

I'm checking rules and 603.3 seems viable, although I'm unsure if it resolves this issue... Is the flashback feature on vengeance considered a triggers ability since game state checked to see if it was cast from GY and since it was it triggered the extra effect?

[BlackJester]

See 706.10

[Greg54js]

Grr stupid extremely long and complicated loops. Why can't all you loops just play nice and be easy on the rules 

[Jbombard51]

I'm twirling my hair and saying I don't get it. I might be over thinking this one -- 603.3 says the ability is copied and put on top of stack with the same text -- and the other rule seems not definitive enough for a straight answer to me. Let's add a specific rule.

Rule BJ902.10: if you copy a spell with flashback, any additional abilities are not copied that are triggered from using flashback.

[Mentonin]

Could you reverberate another reverberate for infinite times the storm anything?

[BlackJester]

I'm twirling my hair and saying I don't get it. I might be over thinking this one -- 603.3 says the ability is copied and put on top of stack with the same text -- and the other rule seems not definitive enough for a straight answer to me. Let's add a specific rule.

Rule BJ902.10: if you copy a spell with flashback, any additional abilities are not copied that are triggered from using flashback.

Hmmm. Interesting. 😏 Guess I need my own rule book.

Okay, so 603.3 is not relevant here because we're not looking at a triggered ability but a replacement effect. We know this because of the "if....instead". (614.1a)

Next, all these spells, when they resolve, create a copy of the targeted spell and the copy goes onto the stack.(706.10)  So {Reverberate} coming from the gy is irrelevant. The copies on the stack are not coming from anywhere, they are just made on the stack.

Finally, you can rephrase the wording on {Increasing Vengeance} to say:
"Copy target instant or sorcery spell you control. If [ this spell ] was cast from a graveyard, copy that spell twice instead. You may choose new targets for the copies."(201.4)
But like I said above, copies of spells aren't cast. They are created directly on the stack. So when a copy of {Increasing Vengeance} resolves, the replacent effect checks to see if the copy was cast from the gy (which it wasn't) and so only one copy is made.

Now that I've had time to review the relevant rules, I'm going to call this confirmed. Please let me know if there are and mistakes or if something is unclear.

[Greg54js]

So no infinite right?

[BlackJester]

So no infinite right?

No infinite. 😞

[Mentonin]

So, for 6 mana, Could you {reverberate} another {reverberate} infinite times to feed a {grapeshot}? Or maybe {talrand, sky summoner} for 4 mana?

[Xanzurth]

The loop won't work because you need a target for the first {reverberate} which in turn stops being a {reverberate} so you can't just cast a {reverberate} to copy it.