Wither and Vigor

[KulrathKnight]

I was gonna post a combo on Combo Corner that I frequently use in one of my decks but now I'm not sure if I've been doing it right. Answering this two-part question would let me know that, and I'll post it there after.

My question is: (1) Does {Vigor}'s damage-replacing ability affect creatures being dealt damage by sources with wither? And (2) if I control both the source of damage and the creature being dealt the damage, does this affect the outcome?

[Deathstorm]

For the first question wither deals damage as -1 -1 counters so the damage wouldn't be prevented because it's not actual damage.
For the second question the damage wouldntatter who the controller is because  {vigor} doesn't specifiy sources controlled by opponents

[Maximo]

No, damage from Wither and Infect sources still counts as damage for effects that care about it. That's why hitting a Planeswalkers with a Wither creature will reduce his loyalty. Planeswalkers can't get -1/-1 counters, as you know.

So in this case, Vigor would still Prevent damage and your creatures would get +1/+1 counters.

[Maximo]

Oh and it doesn't matter whether the damage comes from your opponent or not with Vigor. Use {Alpha Brawl} on it!

Edit: Derp, doesn't work. But you know what I mean.

[Quackmaster5]

Oh and it doesn't matter whether the damage comes from your opponent or not with Vigor. Use {Alpha Brawl} on it!

Edit: Derp, doesn't work. But you know what I mean.

Why wouldn't it work?

[Mentonin]

For the first question wither deals damage as -1 -1 counters so the damage wouldn't be prevented because it's not actual damage.
For the second question the damage wouldntatter who the controller is because  {vigor} doesn't specifiy sources controlled by opponents

It says wither deals DAMAGE in the form of counters. So yes, it IS actual damage. If it said something in the lines of "whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, prevent that damage. Put one -1/-1 counter on that creature for each damage point prevented this way", then it wouldn't be actual damage(although I am not sure wether this effect or vigor's effect would prevent the damage and place counters, it can't be both... Jester, help here!)

[scarsabrex]

wither is damage. vigor doen't care about who the damage is from, only where it is going to.

[Maximo]

And Brawl doesn't work with vigor because brawl says target creature opponent controls.

[scarsabrex]

lol if they cast brawl on you though.

[BlackJester]

It says wither deals DAMAGE in the form of counters. So yes, it IS actual damage. If it said something in the lines of "whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, prevent that damage. Put one -1/-1 counter on that creature for each damage point prevented this way", then it wouldn't be actual damage(although I am not sure wether this effect or vigor's effect would prevent the damage and place counters, it can't be both... Jester, help here!)

You are right, it can't be both.

If you have two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (damage dealing) you choose which one to apply.  Say you control both {Vigor} and {Phyrexian Hydra}.  If your opponent {Lightning Bolt}s it, both Vigor and the Hydra are going to try to prevent the damage.  If the Hydra prevents it, it'll get -1/-1 counters and Vigor's ability won't have an effect.  Optimally, if Vigor prevents it, Hydra will get 3 +1/+1 counters.

[KulrathKnight]

So would it work the same if someone {Puncture Blast}s one of my {Smokebraider}s? I can prevent the wither because {Vigor} is putting +1/+1 counters on it instead of -1/-1 counters from the blast?

[scarsabrex]

essentially yes.

[KulrathKnight]

I shall post the combo now. Glad I've been doing it right.

[Deathstorm]

Sorry guys I thought minus countrs didnt counts as damage

[Mentonin]

It says wither deals DAMAGE in the form of counters. So yes, it IS actual damage. If it said something in the lines of "whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, prevent that damage. Put one -1/-1 counter on that creature for each damage point prevented this way", then it wouldn't be actual damage(although I am not sure wether this effect or vigor's effect would prevent the damage and place counters, it can't be both... Jester, help here!)

You are right, it can't be both.

If you have two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (damage dealing) you choose which one to apply.  Say you control both {Vigor} and {Phyrexian Hydra}.  If your opponent {Lightning Bolt}s it, both Vigor and the Hydra are going to try to prevent the damage.  If the Hydra prevents it, it'll get -1/-1 counters and Vigor's ability won't have an effect.  Optimally, if Vigor prevents it, Hydra will get 3 +1/+1 counters.

ok. But what about the opponent controlling the other prevention effect? Would it go like: active player goes on stack, then non active player goes on stack, thus having the victory for the vigor(in case the active player is attacking with the wither like creature which prevents the damage and replaces) and the wither like effect winning when the active player with vigor is attacking with a normal creature and the non active blocks with the imagined creature?
P.S. the "wither like effect" I mentioned doesn't deal damage as counters, it prevents the damage and gives counters according to the amount of damage prevented