Can we start being more strict on casual versus competitive?

[Rothsteine]

is my legacy deck casual, because i don't want to shell  out 300$ for 3 {Tundra} or because i can't afford 3 more {Force of Will} right now?  No my deck is a legacy deck, made to be played in legacy tournaments.  I might not win, but that does not change the fact that it is a legacy deck.  What your saying is that unless you can afford a play-set of Tarmagoyfs or Force of wills for their respective colors they are not competitive, and therefor should be put into casual.  I disagree if a deck is made to be played in standard, it is standard ect.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

If you know what you need and are working towards it, that's different. Choosing to not just because you don't want to spend money on cardboardboard is different.

My point Taysby is who are you (or anyone, not just you) to tell me i cant post my modern legal deck in the modern section, for example, because you and whoever else dont believe that it is competitive enough?  If anyone has a problem with it, well thats just it, its their problem, not mine, and it is not their place to tell me how I should or shouldnt use the forum, so long as I am not breaking the rules. Whether or not I want to shell out money or not is irrelevant.

[Kaalia with haste]

I agree, wanting to or not wanting to shelling out money is irrelevant. The decks that aren't competive are the decks that look more like draft decks or kitchen table decks. 'Modern' decks playing 4 copies of Darien king of kjeldor and your curve STARTING at 4 aren't modern decks. Standard Decks playing 4 copies of omnath and hoping to god they draw it otherwise they can't reasonably win aren't standard decks. These are casual decks. The point here isn't to be discriminatory it's to get people to use the right section of the forum.

[DirtyMustachio]

If you know what you need and are working towards it, that's different. Choosing to not just because you don't want to spend money on cardboardboard is different.

My point Taysby is who are you (or anyone, not just you) to tell me i cant post my modern legal deck in the modern section, for example, because you and whoever else dont believe that it is competitive enough?  If anyone has a problem with it, well thats just it, its their problem, not mine, and it is not their place to tell me how I should or shouldnt use the forum, so long as I am not breaking the rules. Whether or not I want to shell out money or not is irrelevant.

Clap clap clap clap

[DirtyMustachio]

I agree, wanting to or not wanting to shelling out money is irrelevant. The decks that aren't competive are the decks that look more like draft decks or kitchen table decks. 'Modern' decks playing 4 copies of Darien king of kjeldor and your curve STARTING at 4 aren't modern decks. Standard Decks playing 4 copies of omnath and hoping to god they draw it otherwise they can't reasonably win aren't standard decks. These are casual decks. The point here isn't to be discriminatory it's to get people to use the right section of the forum.

Your dead wrong.

If they believe that can win, or even accomplish what they want in a modern tournament there isn't thing wrong with posting it, getting suggestions and moving forward with it.

This is a brand of elitism and I don't like It.

[Kaylesh]

I agree, wanting to or not wanting to shelling out money is irrelevant. The decks that aren't competive are the decks that look more like draft decks or kitchen table decks. 'Modern' decks playing 4 copies of Darien king of kjeldor and your curve STARTING at 4 aren't modern decks. Standard Decks playing 4 copies of omnath and hoping to god they draw it otherwise they can't reasonably win aren't standard decks. These are casual decks. The point here isn't to be discriminatory it's to get people to use the right section of the forum.

Well, as you rightly point out, those decks likely don't have a shot at winning. By the time you start playing, you've already lost.
However: wouldn't it be great explaining to the guy who took his time to try and build around his favorite card?
I agree Commander and casual are better suited for "homage" decks, but let's say some guy REALLY loves a certain card that he wants to run competitively, could we improve on the deck so that it becomes fringe instead of jank?
I happened to do just the same with Zada. Started out jank, moved to somewhat fringe, and I know now you build lacks speed. I did see a R(W)DW employ Zada and Arcbond as I did, in a faster shell. I actually learned a lot that moment. My shell was too slow, too much focus on the combo.
That sort of feedback up front could have changed my deck a bit, made it more competitive, without having to change around a lot after already spending my budget for the deck.

[griffin131]

I agree, wanting to or not wanting to shelling out money is irrelevant. The decks that aren't competive are the decks that look more like draft decks or kitchen table decks. 'Modern' decks playing 4 copies of Darien king of kjeldor and your curve STARTING at 4 aren't modern decks. Standard Decks playing 4 copies of omnath and hoping to god they draw it otherwise they can't reasonably win aren't standard decks. These are casual decks. The point here isn't to be discriminatory it's to get people to use the right section of the forum.

The Casual section isn't for Standard decks. It's for decks that are looking to play in the Casual format.

The Standard section is for Standard decks, regardless of their power level.

[MuggyWuggy]

Casual section uses banned cards

[griffin131]

You're still missing my point. If you know your deck needs a card to improve, but you refuse to buy it, then by definition, it is not competitive. If you have a janky home brew idea, that's fine, but build it with Aether vials if that would improve it.

Competitive means making it as good as possible.

I'm staying out of the discussion if it shouldn't be allowed in the modern section, just that it isn't a competitive deck if you refuse to improve it.

No one disagrees with that.
The disagreement is where you've decided that only your definition of competitive decks are allowed in the Modern section. Anyone else has to go to the Casual format section where they can get non Modern cards recommended.

You've decided that only competitive decks should be allowed in the Modern/Standard/whatever sections. Why?  Where did you get that idea?

Do you understand that Casual and Modern are both formats?

[DirtyMustachio]

You're still missing my point. If you know your deck needs a card to improve, but you refuse to buy it, then by definition, it is not competitive. If you have a janky home brew idea, that's fine, but build it with Aether vials if that would improve it.

Competitive means making it as good as possible.

I'm staying out of the discussion if it shouldn't be allowed in the modern section, just that it isn't a competitive deck if you refuse to improve it.

Who authorizes your definition as competitive.

I can refuse to use any card on any principle or for any reason including price, and still take it and make it competitive.

Just because the format dictates something, that doesn't account for the changes that constantly take place in any format.

Fetches for example do not force the win over people making the choice to not use them, generally it just makes it more consistent.

Is that a way of saying more competitive sure.

Does it make the other deck casual

NO IT DOESNT

If I want to take a competitive landfall trash deck to a tournament and I want help making it the best landfall pos ever then I have the RIGHT to post the deck in the section that is made available to ALL standard decks MODERN decks or LEGACY decks

Some people simply can't afford cards.

Some times cards are placeholders for ones they plan to get.

And some people want to make new Decks that change the format

Keep on with that linear thinking and assume all things stay the same.

It's not a refusal to improve it, it's a persons ingenuity to make a deck that may or not work for them

[DirtyMustachio]

I do and if someone refuses to buy a card no matter how much better a choice may be on any principle

It's choice and has nothing to do with competitiveness

Do they have bad judgement sometimes sure

But does not make what the purpose of the deck is for any less potent

[DirtyMustachio]

I'm saying you aren't in a position t make the call your making

[DirtyMustachio]

So a legacy deck that runs {cancel} over force of will is still competitive?

Powerful no, competitive is left to the aggressiveness and attitude of the player.

The competitiveness is a level of the event and players that play at a different level of thinking.

Cards are cards, some are better some are worse.

Give the same deck to a pro and to a noob and see what happens. Even if the deck sucks the competition is in the plays the player makes.

Are there better choices, but people have the will to decide what choices they want to pool from but it's not your right to decide at what level they want to enter in at

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

I think you are missing the point Taysby. People (usually new members) post decks asking for improvements in modern and legacy sections and for numerous reasons they dont look great. 9 times out of 10 the first response they get goes something like 'this shouldnt be here it should be in casual' or 'this deck is bad, card x is bad and card y is bad'

All this does is either confuse the person, because they think 'what did i do wrong? It said i can post modern legal decks here' or it pisses them off and they start to push back and it inevitably leads to people thinking they dont wanna accept help, when they are just defending themselves from a bully  (from their perspective). Either way they are less likely to return.

[DirtyMustachio]

My first tournament in competitive play was during

Cold snap, ravnica, and time spiral

Back then there was no Mtg top 8
There was barely any Internet forums
And if there was an advanced search for gatherer I wasn't aware of it.

If you wanted to know cards you bought inquest or you had your fat pack inserts

That being said not many did either of those.

It was a state regionals, not even sure they do those anymore.

There was no real way telling for me that there was a dragon storm combo, tarmogofy beatdown etc...

You know what I took?

A mono black zombies

I mean why not?

I had {four damnation}
Four {slaughter pact}
Four {korlash, heir to the blackblade}

Now did I know that my deck wouldn't be as powerful??

No, but did I have every intent of being competitive?

Was I? I can tell you this I sure didn't roll over and play dead even coming in dead last.

My play ability back then was probably at my lowest.

I didn't but what's to be said I didn't come back from that and continue to play the same deck but just want to make it better?

Was it a fun deck? Yes. Was it powerful in its own right? Sure. Maybe it would have never ever ever beat a dragon storm deck.

Maybe

But they sure couldn't just sit around and twiddle there thumbs.

I think it stands to reason that ANY deck can be made more competitive, and that the player decides how that is done, not mass approval