Origins lilly

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

Sorry if these have been asked before...

This goes for all flip walkers: If I had one out as a walker, can another as a creature be in play at the same time before it's been flipped?

And, in the case of {liliana, heretical healer}, if I board wipe with another creature out, will she come back transformed, or will she just die?

[Prplprince]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

The second part is you can have the Walker and creature out at the same time but if the creature flips you will have to sac one of the Walker versions due to the legend rule.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

The second part is you can have the Walker and creature out at the same time but if the creature flips you will have to sac one of the Walker versions due to the PLANESWALKER UNIQUENESS rule.

edited for rule exactness but otherwise perfectly correct

Edited further just to be a dick

[Prplprince]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

The second part is you can have the Walker and creature out at the same time but if the creature flips you will have to sac one of the Walker versions due to the PLANESWALKER UNIQUENESS rule.

edited for rule exactness but otherwise perfectly correct

Edited further just to be a dick

No edit just wanted to quote

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

I think I figured this out as I post, but I'll ask to make sure. In the case of {zulaport cutthroat}, if I had 4 of them out, and board wiped, would that just be 4 loss/gain, or 16? I'm guessing that the "or" clause makes the distinction between the two conditions, showing that they wont happen at the same time. So I guess the answer is 4 loss/gain.

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

I think I figured this out as I post, but I'll ask to make sure. In the case of {zulaport cutthroat}, if I had 4 of them out, and board wiped, would that just be 4 loss/gain, or 16? I'm guessing that the "or" clause makes the distinction between the two conditions, showing that they wont happen at the same time. So I guess the answer is 4 loss/gain.

actually they each see themselves and 3 others go, so it IS 16

So how does the cutthroat ability differ from lilly's? They both are an ability triggered from another creature dying. But if Lilly's doesn't work because she dies at the same time, why would cutthroat's work for anyone but himself?

[rarehuntertay]

In the case of a board whip like a  {Wrath of God} Your flip Walker will be killed without flipping because it will be on its way to the graveyard before its effect can hit the stack.

I think I figured this out as I post, but I'll ask to make sure. In the case of {zulaport cutthroat}, if I had 4 of them out, and board wiped, would that just be 4 loss/gain, or 16? I'm guessing that the "or" clause makes the distinction between the two conditions, showing that they wont happen at the same time. So I guess the answer is 4 loss/gain.

actually they each see themselves and 3 others go, so it IS 16

So how does the cutthroat ability differ from lilly's? They both are an ability triggered from another creature dying. But if Lilly's doesn't work because she dies at the same time, why would cutthroat's work for anyone but himself?

It's all in the wording.
Lily works when a non-token creatures and she is still on the battlefield.
Cutthroat states when either ITSELF or another creature dies.

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

The only difference I see is where zulaport adds himself into the trigger. But the wording makes it sounds like only one OR the other will happen. So why does he see other creatures dying as he dies but Liliana doesn't? I get that he triggers off his own death, which is the difference to liliana. It still sounds like the exact same trigger, just in the case of his own death, it happens as well. But not both at the same time. One OR the other

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

So because his death is involved in the trigger, he can count other deaths as well? As fun as the analogies are, it's not helping me get the rules. What does the trigger look like on the stack? His death puts an ability on the stack with two conditions to fill; the first is filled because that's how it got there in the first place, now it can also look for the other condition "another creature dies", count them, and resolve accordingly. Is the accurate?

Thank you guys for your patience with my stubbornness. In sure you're right, I'm just having trouble understanding it

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

Ok...it's the zone change, isn't it....the ability directly interacts with the card itself, which has lost its place when the ability resolves. Even if that's not exactly it, I get it. Thank you.
So same situation with, say, {Chandra, flame of kaladesh}. If her 3 damage was done through an attack and the oppenent had {vengeful pharaoh} in the yard, she wouldn't get transformed, right?

[redwolv]

Doesn't matter. Chandra flip effect is only checked during  her tap ability.

[Oldschoolmtgnoob]

Doesn't matter. Chandra flip effect is only checked during  her tap ability.

I actually had a ruling on that during prerelease. My oppenent tapped for the damage, untapped, then attacked. I told him it transforms now, but he disagreed. So he called a judge, and the judge ruled that it does flip. Damage is damage.

It says "this turn" not "this way". I think that's where people miss it

[redwolv]

Doesn't matter. Chandra flip effect is only checked during  her tap ability.

I actually had a ruling on that during prerelease. My oppenent tapped for the damage, untapped, then attacked. I told him it transforms now, but he disagreed. So he called a judge, and the judge ruled that it does flip. Damage is damage.

It says "this turn" not "this way". I think that's where people miss it

True, so if you attack, deal 2 damage. Cast a spell to untap her then tap her for her ability she will flip.

The issue here is that her the check for when she flips is part of her tap ability. Its not something that is alway being checked for like lili. It's like {jace, vryn's prodigy} if you play him with 5 cards already in your graveyard, or you do something else to put a card in the graveyard so you have 5, doesn't make him flip. It is only checked after the first part of his tap ability.

[rarehuntertay]

I looked it up last night.
From Gatherer:
6/22/2015: The last sentence of Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh's activated ability isn't a separate ability. The check happens only as that activated ability resolves. You must activate the ability in order to exile Chandra and return her to the battlefield transformed, even if Chandra has already dealt 3 or more damage during the turn.

[redwolv]

I looked it up last night.
From Gatherer:
6/22/2015: The last sentence of Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh's activated ability isn't a separate ability. The check happens only as that activated ability resolves. You must activate the ability in order to exile Chandra and return her to the battlefield transformed, even if Chandra has already dealt 3 or more damage during the turn.

Thanks, leave it to gatherer to explain it so easily.