The "Dies To..." Debate

[LinkCelestrial]

The basic questions,

Is dies to _____ a valid reason to say a card is bad?

Is removal a valid reason to not run creatures?

The expounded ones.

When you evaluate a card, is the fact that x removal works on it a reason to say it's not a good card?

When you're considering a creature, is the thought "it'll just be {Path to Exile}/{Doom Blade}/{Lightning Bolt}ed anyways" a valid reason to not run it?

I feel like I could have done a better job "explaining this" but I think you'll all get it.

[lotrwk]

Isn't resilient to or gets brick-walled by are better arguments. Dies to is useless

[LinkCelestrial]

My 2 cents,

I think the "it dies to ____" is semi-relevant. Everything is removable. However if it dies to {Little Girl} there's a problem. I also think the relevance is based off the purpose of the card, for example,

{Goblin Guide} dies to the vast majority of removal spells. However it's still a good card because its job is to get in and smash face face for as much time as possible.

{Phyrexian Revoker} dies to pretty much anything. Its job is to prevent activated abilities from being activated. If you need that ability to be shut down but your opponent can use almost any removal spell in the book, you're in trouble.

I think that the presence of removal is not a truly valid reason to not run x creature. There is the burn test, if you have something important to your strategy but it dies to {Lightning Bolt} there might be an issue.

My logic is that if they're spending their resources to remove creature x then creature y has a better chance of sticking around. And in the case of burn, it's not hitting you in the face.

TL, DR: I think that a cards resilience is not a determining factor in its playability. If it's a win con or central to your strategy it needs to be resilient or you need to protect it.

You can always just go creatureless.

[DimirOverlord1300]

Dies to bolt is the one that matters most because it's a hugely played card. The argument isn't that it does to bolt, it's that it dies to bolt, doesn't give you value, and is enough mana that there's a significant tempo loss.

[Munchlax]

Animar doesn't die to 2 of the things mentioned

[cltrn81]

Dies to bolt is the one that matters most because it's a hugely played card. The argument isn't that it does to bolt, it's that it dies to bolt, doesn't give you value, and is enough mana that there's a significant tempo loss.

Even then, the argument isn't: "It sucks because Bolt kills it," it's "it sucks because it didn't do anything IMPORTANT before Bolt killed it."

Great point about if the creature does something relevant before removal.

[LinkCelestrial]

Dies to bolt is the one that matters most because it's a hugely played card. The argument isn't that it does to bolt, it's that it dies to bolt, doesn't give you value, and is enough mana that there's a significant tempo loss.

Even then, the argument isn't: "It sucks because Bolt kills it," it's "it sucks because it didn't do anything IMPORTANT before Bolt killed it."

Great point about if the creature does something relevant before removal.

That's why {Thragtusk} was such a big deal during Ravnica standard. Value even with {Supreme Verdict} and friends. Very good point and well said.

[Mattao19]

Dies to is very relevant. It's the reason why things like Tasigur are so good in modern it's bc they don't die to bolt. The creatures that die to bolt in modern are extremely valuable.

{Delver of Secrets} 1 mana 3/2 flier
{Snapcaster Mage} insane value
{Goblin guide} shock at the least (usually}
Obvi there's more but those are the big 3

Creatures that are powerful but die to bolt:
{Vexing Devil} not played partly bc dies to bolt
{Huntmaster of the Fells} dies to bolt
And probably many more but can't really think of them right now

[Spencer Addington]

Look at {Wild Nacatl}. One of the(if not the) best one drops ever printed and it does to bolt. It comes down to efficiency.

[MuggyWuggy]

I guess the dies to argument applies to most items 3 cmc or less

Everything dies to abrupt decay

[Mattao19]

Yes but Decay is played a lot less than Bolt which is why when ppl design decks they need to keep Bolt in mind

[MuggyWuggy]

So does that mean tasigur is god of modern? Does not to decay or bolt? But dies to path!

This must mean bogles are the gods

[Mattao19]

So does that mean tasigur is god of modern? Does not to decay or bolt? But dies to path!

This must mean bogles are the gods

Tasigur has been doing great in modern I mean Twin is basically splashing for him and Bogles is a legit deck so ya they are great cards.

I mean there's a reson why Tarmo Twin is not played and that's bc Grixis Twin doesn't run Tarmo and Scooze which both die to bolt (that and Grixis has better support cards) but still the dies to X is not a reason to not play a card but it is a reason to {Think Twice} before playing it

[Hunteroffire9]

Not the valid argument if the creature is efficient or they lose If they don't have removal for it.