Reserved list

[Rass]

Didn't wotc already reprint something or things off the reserved list?

Also with all the influx of people how many of them really care about the reserved list? With it booming right now wouldn't it be the time to try to get them into another type of play?

phyrexian negator was made as a promo in a duel Deck I believe

Thanks. Also forgot how easy Google was

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/031810a

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

My point was (summarised):

* wizards makes no money from the secondary market, and therfore how much a tundra costs doesnt currently feature in their business model

*they injected some staples into modern, because they wanted to, and could do so without breaking their promise

* they promised to never reprint the reserve list, and they do not 'owe it' to players to rerprint anything

*standard and limited are booming right now, and that is where they make all their money

And i also said that it is my opinion that those cards will never be reprinted, and we have no right to be mad about that

You told me that i am simply wrong, because wizards could easily make loads more money by sacrificing their reputation and making a lot of players happy while only making a few unhappy. Now while you supplied no actual evidence to support your statements, just opinion, i agree with you. What i was saying that by you saying that im wrong, and then going off on a tangent, is not cool.

Your points in order:

-The secondary market does matter because it effects the people that buy Magic. For example, if duals were to double, forcing people out of legacy and vintage, complementary goods such as TTN and {Containment Priest} lose value, devaluing sealed product, and WotC sells less. In essence, a happy customer buys more.

-Businesses don't do things because they want to, they do things to make money. WotC printed Modern Masters because they charge $7 a pack instead of $4. It would be like printing dollar bills and then finding out you could just print $5 instead for the same price. Obviously they don't want to crash the secondary market, but they want to print as much as they can for as much as they can charge, so if you could print Legacy Masters for $20 a pack, WotC will want to do it if they can get away with it. I am sure Hasbro is already pondering the situation.

-They don't owe it to not reprint, but it is advantageous for them. Think of it this way: you don't "owe it" to your employer to take the raise, but you will be more than happy to take the cash.

-They do make money from standard and limited, but they figured out they could make even more from Modern, Legacy, etc. WotC is slowly realizing that it is stupid to only make money off of Standard and Limited, and have already started marketing Commander and Modern, so if they can find a way to make money off of Legacy and Vintage without pissing everyone off, they will.

-I think you overestimate the damage that would done to their reputation. A few people would be mad, but they have openly said that it was a mistake. Not to mention, they could easily spin it as looking out for their players.

Pre-emptive argument: Before anyone brings up Wizards cannot legally reprint the Reserved List, this is a huge gray area. The laws that "prevent" them are called Promissory Estopel, but they require a party that depends on the promise, a party that made a promise, and proof that breaking the promise would cause damages, and legally speaking it would be practically impossible to establish this.

[MuggyWuggy]

Maybe we can just ask them to remake everything again.

Modern masters is hooking players up, reprinting fetches for khans is hooking players up, having commander product easily available and almost unlimited commander supply hooks players up, (sure it's cost $120 for a playset).

On these forums you find cards like force of will for $60-$70, you can meet up with people and find underground seas heavily beaten up for about $100-150. You can scour garage sales and find a treasure chest of cards for $20-$40.

Some men end up bald and holding onto bulk rares thinking they retain value trying to sell them all at mid tcg range (ive met the fellow several times) others have one deck they've built over time and enjoy as they carefully places their money into the collectible card game.

My point is that is not impossible to acquire the cards you want. Search harder, collect harder. I've acquired a future sight tarmogoyf with trading in standard cards at a GP. So you can trade up to the cards you want, it's all accessible for anyone. Pack to Power has happened. This forum right here has given many people duals for standard or modern cards.

Wizards reprinting stuff they said would not be reprinted is a company admitting fully to no face and only profit. Some nerds still respect honor of word.

Because with a false word, what else can you be trusted with?

What if they started printing land that comes into play untapped and it produces 2 mana of any color combo. Now everyone who has spent money on modern & legacy mana bases will replace everything with these new $5 lands that tap for double mana. What if that's how the game evolves?

Other than the duals: what do you want reprinted? {Moat}? A card that makes EDH stagnant?

[NovusOrbis]

Taking into consideration that standard cards have reached around $50 or so in price in the past, I highly doubt a land that good would be $5.
If they abolish the reserved list they'd make bank, invite more people to play, and it would generally be better for everyone. You can't just invest  in a game. If wizards went bankrupt tomorrow and all the cards lost their value, then what would you do? You would still play, but now they're worthless pieces of cardboard. The only people that would be upset if a reprint happened would be investors, not players.

[InfinitiveDivinity]

This argument is going nowhere. Just shut it.

[griffin131]

You don't seem to be considering net worth.
Investment:
the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

Nope. Because things like magic cards aren't very liquid - at least not at the price you want for them. Net worth is liquid capital, not things like cars or houses that aren't paid off.

I do expect to sell eventually, and buying a piece of cardboard for $300 knowing it'll crash to $10 eventually is stupid.

If you expect to sell, then it's an investment. You even defined it up there - you don't want the value to go down, so you want it to go up.

Also, look at mtgo. Not very many people are interested in legacy and vintage. A reprint would severely damage the price of the originals. Right now, everyone who wants one has to get the original, and with the limited supply, drives prices up. If those people could buy a $10 version, they would. There would not be enough collectors to keep prices up

First of all, it's an assumption that a reprint would damage the price of the originals. Look at {Tarmogoyf}.
And I'm familiar with supply and demand - introducing more supply would increase demand past the supply point, leading to an increase in price, not a decrease as you've assumed.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

My point was (summarised):

* wizards makes no money from the secondary market, and therfore how much a tundra costs doesnt currently feature in their business model

*they injected some staples into modern, because they wanted to, and could do so without breaking their promise

* they promised to never reprint the reserve list, and they do not 'owe it' to players to rerprint anything

*standard and limited are booming right now, and that is where they make all their money

And i also said that it is my opinion that those cards will never be reprinted, and we have no right to be mad about that

You told me that i am simply wrong, because wizards could easily make loads more money by sacrificing their reputation and making a lot of players happy while only making a few unhappy. Now while you supplied no actual evidence to support your statements, just opinion, i agree with you. What i was saying that by you saying that im wrong, and then going off on a tangent, is not cool.

Your points in order:

-The secondary market does matter because it effects the people that buy Magic. For example, if duals were to double, forcing people out of legacy and vintage, complementary goods such as TTN and {Containment Priest} lose value, devaluing sealed product, and WotC sells less. In essence, a happy customer buys more.

-Businesses don't do things because they want to, they do things to make money. WotC printed Modern Masters because they charge $7 a pack instead of $4. It would be like printing dollar bills and then finding out you could just print $5 instead for the same price. Obviously they don't want to crash the secondary market, but they want to print as much as they can for as much as they can charge, so if you could print Legacy Masters for $20 a pack, WotC will want to do it if they can get away with it. I am sure Hasbro is already pondering the situation.

-They don't owe it to not reprint, but it is advantageous for them. Think of it this way: you don't "owe it" to your employer to take the raise, but you will be more than happy to take the cash.

-They do make money from standard and limited, but they figured out they could make even more from Modern, Legacy, etc. WotC is slowly realizing that it is stupid to only make money off of Standard and Limited, and have already started marketing Commander and Modern, so if they can find a way to make money off of Legacy and Vintage without pissing everyone off, they will.

-I think you overestimate the damage that would done to their reputation. A few people would be mad, but they have openly said that it was a mistake. Not to mention, they could easily spin it as looking out for their players.

Pre-emptive argument: Before anyone brings up Wizards cannot legally reprint the Reserved List, this is a huge gray area. The laws that "prevent" them are called Promissory Estopel, but they require a party that depends on the promise, a party that made a promise, and proof that breaking the promise would cause damages, and legally speaking it would be practically impossible to establish this.

From my perspective all you are saying is 'you are wrong because my opinion is different'. While i agree with a lot of what you are saying, and i think it likely, it remains opinion. Hence this is only going to continue to go around in circles, so why dont we just agree that neither one of us works for wizards, therefore neither of us has all the information to be able to speak for them.

[MuggyWuggy]

So lets say they do reprint them. Should they print enough so that every single player can have a playset or will they be in limited supply like MM and be $35 MSRP sold at $50?

Someone will still not get the items they want and will cry about money makes the game unfair

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

To me, those sorts of cards represent something to work towards. It would be nice to have easy access to as many of them as i want, but at the same time i believe it is best for the game that the market doesnt become saturated. If anyone can access any card any time, we may as well just all play with proxies, since the best cards would have lost their value, both monetary and collectibility. For lack of a better term, anarchy. Do you agree?

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

To me, those sorts of cards represent something to work towards. It would be nice to have easy access to as many of them as i want, but at the same time i believe it is best for the game that the market doesnt become saturated. If anyone can access any card any time, we may as well just all play with proxies, since the best cards would have lost their value, both monetary and collectibility. For lack of a better term, anarchy. Do you agree?

I agree, but I think we need a happy medium. Cards need to hold some value because we have seen what happens when they don't (Yu-gi-oh), but Wizards has been able to reprint staples without crashing the market. The other thing to consider is the longer we wait, the worse it gets. The more value Reserved List cards gain, the faller they have to potentially fall. What is essentially happening is a bubble in the market or to put it in simpler terms: people are investing in Reserved List cards because they believe that it has to be all up hill, but their view of the future is implausible.

[Rass]

money makes the game unfair

Are you saying that's not a true statement?

[Dstyle1]

I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

Why do you buy a car with a high re-sale value?

An investment is trying to make money, which I'm not

Because you want to feel good about yourself.

Caring about resale value only matters if you're going to sell. If you're never going to sell, the resale value is absolutely irrelevant. It'll never come into play. You could literally burn your cards and there'd be no difference to your wallet.

That's what I said 😮

[cltrn81]

money makes the game unfair

Are you saying that's not a true statement?

Just play on cockatrice or untap.in and you will see people playing the most expensive cards incorrectly or poorly played.  Competitive magic is much more then just the cards.....it is the decisions you make that make those cards powerful.

I want to expand on Muggy's statement about just pay the 2 life.  How often do you see Lego games that close where some extra shock land hits would have made a difference?  It is typically a blow out win.  I bet about 90% of the wins would not be affected if the winner of the match used a mix of shock lands and check lands instead.........and the effect would be even less if you just used (1) ABUR land so you can fetch it and run the rest as shocks.  I get one island on the board and my {glacial fortress} is as good as a {tundra} or I fetch my {hallowed fountain} at the end of my opponent's turn and now I have both basic types.  After T1, those original duals are much less powerful. 

[MuggyWuggy]

Strategy to win when you have more resources to risk??! Crazy talk

[Dstyle1]

In legacy life is a usable resource. And I'd hate to give give up resources to my opponent for free.