Spectra Ward Judge ruling, vs me

[Ekann1]

I'm going to go with the none of the cheaty methods mentioned will work to add enchantments to the creature enchanted with spectra ward. Protection explicitly prevents the enchanting of a creature (the E in debt). The ward only modifies the rule for enchantments already attached to the creature.

702.16c: A permanent or player with protection can't be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, "State-Based Actions.")

Rules text:
"Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from all colors. This effect doesn't remove Auras."

It can't be targeted (the "Enchant creature" targets), but once it's there, Spectra Ward's text overrides the E of debt, allowing the aura to stay.

He was saying that he thinks things such as {Zur the Enchanter} don't get around {Spectra Ward}.

This was from Zur's rulings:

7/15/2006   If you use Zur the Enchanter's triggered ability to search for an Aura, it will be put onto the battlefield attached to an appropriate permanent. It doesn't target that permanent. If no appropriate permanent exists for it to be attached to, that Aura can't be put onto the battlefield and stays in your library.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121162

[Pleeb]

I'm going to go with the none of the cheaty methods mentioned will work to add enchantments to the creature enchanted with spectra ward. Protection explicitly prevents the enchanting of a creature (the E in debt). The ward only modifies the rule for enchantments already attached to the creature.

702.16c: A permanent or player with protection can't be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, "State-Based Actions.")

Rules text:
"Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from all colors. This effect doesn't remove Auras."

It can't be targeted (the "Enchant creature" targets), but once it's there, Spectra Ward's text overrides the E of debt, allowing the aura to stay.

He was saying that he thinks things such as {Zur the Enchanter} don't get around {Spectra Ward}.

This was from Zur's rulings:

7/15/2006   If you use Zur the Enchanter's triggered ability to search for an Aura, it will be put onto the battlefield attached to an appropriate permanent. It doesn't target that permanent. If no appropriate permanent exists for it to be attached to, that Aura can't be put onto the battlefield and stays in your library.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121162

I'm not disagreeing that Zur gets around the targeting. What I'm saying is that protection prevents the creature from being enchanted in the first place. Read the ruling I posted again. There are two parts of the rule. The first says that it can't be enchanted. The second says any enchantments there fall off. Spectra ward only changes the rule for the second half, not the first.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

I feel the need to point out that 'enchanting' a permanent is, in fact, targeting the permanent.

114.1b: Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn't target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)

As it says an aura permanent doesn't target anything, only the spell is targeted. Therefore any means of getting an enchantment on something enchanted with {spectra ward} without explicitly casting it as a spell, would be a valid way of getting it on, including {zur the enchanter}, as the rulings state that the protection granted doesn't cause enchantments to fall off.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

Not 100%  sure if that would override the 'debt' principle but that's my take on it, based on the rule I quoted.

[Gorzo]

casting an aura spell requires you to target a permanent. 100% of the time.

The reason that Zur and {Sun Titan} can get around targeting is because they bypass the casting part entirely. They use an ability that places the aura into play attached to Zur / a permanent (not casting, and not technically targeting)

Edit: As for {Spectra Ward} in this situation, it could HYPOTHETICALLY work to add new enchantments by "cheating" them into play with effects like Zur and Sun Titan. however, Ward's CMC is too high for either of those abilities to use on Spectra Ward. 3 or less, ward is 5.

[Munchlax]

casting an aura spell requires you to target a permanent. 100% of the time.

The reason that Zur and {Sun Titan} can get around targeting is because they bypass the casting part entirely. They use an ability that places the aura into play attached to Zur / a permanent (not casting, and not technically targeting)

Edit: As for {Spectra Ward} in this situation, it could HYPOTHETICALLY work to add new enchantments by "cheating" them into play with effects like Zur and Sun Titan. however, Ward's CMC is too high for either of those abilities to use on Spectra Ward. 3 or less, ward is 5.

Well wouldn't it work with {Bruna light of Alabaster} then?

[Pleeb]

casting an aura spell requires you to target a permanent. 100% of the time
The reason that Zur and {Sun Titan} can get around targeting is because they bypass the casting part entirely. They use an ability that places the aura into play attached to Zur / a permanent (not casting, and not technically targeting)

Edit: As for {Spectra Ward} in this situation, it could HYPOTHETICALLY work to add new enchantments by "cheating" them into play with effects like Zur and Sun Titan. however, Ward's CMC is too high for either of those abilities to use on Spectra Ward. 3 or less, ward is 5.

We're not talking about using Zur to place the ward, but being able to place an enchantment on a creature with ward already in place. Zur and Titan don't care about the cmc of ward.

[Remillo]

After double-checking: You can, in fact, attach new auras to a creature with Spectra Ward by 'cheating' them on to the battlefield.  Spectra Ward basically turns DEBT in to DBT, meaning the creature is a legal choice to be enchanted.

[Nymuera]

Does it bypass the targeting for casting enchantments as well?

[Mattao19]

After double-checking: You can, in fact, attach new auras to a creature with Spectra Ward by 'cheating' them on to the battlefield.  Spectra Ward basically turns DEBT in to DBT, meaning the creature is a legal choice to be enchanted.

What if you cast normally?

[Pleeb]

After double-checking: You can, in fact, attach new auras to a creature with Spectra Ward by 'cheating' them on to the battlefield.  Spectra Ward basically turns DEBT in to DBT, meaning the creature is a legal choice to be enchanted.

What if you cast normally?

You still can't target.

[Mattao19]

After double-checking: You can, in fact, attach new auras to a creature with Spectra Ward by 'cheating' them on to the battlefield.  Spectra Ward basically turns DEBT in to DBT, meaning the creature is a legal choice to be enchanted.

What if you cast normally?

You still can't target.

Ok sweet thanks