what color is

AdamS · February 17, 2014, 09:45:52 PM

{Elbrus, the Binding Blade} is he considered black or is he considered colorles because he has no mana symbols? can i use him as a commander?

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM

His color identity is black. And as he is the flip side of the card I do not believe he can be used as a commander.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 09:56:25 PM

{Withengar Unbound} would be colorless. The only symbols present on the card are the colorless symbol. He cannot be a commander, as creature is not presented in it's types.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 09:57:36 PM

Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM
His color identity is black. And as he is the flip side of the card I do not believe he can be used as a commander.

would he be considered black? There are no black mana symbols present on the card. Let me look at the official ruling

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: FustyDavorite on February 17, 2014, 09:57:36 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM
His color identity is black. And as he is the flip side of the card I do not believe he can be used as a commander.
would he be considered black? There are no black mana symbols present on the card. Let me look at the official ruling

Sounds good I'm too lazy to look atm lol. And we had a discussion about this a while ago ( my playgroup and I) involving {Garruk Relentless} and someone found the ruling on it and he has a black color identity as well as green.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 10:03:39 PM

Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 10:01:18 PM
Quote from: FustyDavorite on February 17, 2014, 09:57:36 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM
His color identity is black. And as he is the flip side of the card I do not believe he can be used as a commander.
would he be considered black? There are no black mana symbols present on the card. Let me look at the official ruling
Sounds good I'm too lazy to look atm lol. And we had a discussion about this a while ago ( my playgroup and I) involving {Garruk Relentless} and someone found the ruling on it and he has a black color identity as well as green.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 10:04:57 PM

Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 10:01:18 PM
Quote from: FustyDavorite on February 17, 2014, 09:57:36 PM
Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM
His color identity is black. And as he is the flip side of the card I do not believe he can be used as a commander.
would he be considered black? There are no black mana symbols present on the card. Let me look at the official ruling
Sounds good I'm too lazy to look atm lol. And we had a discussion about this a while ago ( my playgroup and I) involving {Garruk Relentless} and someone found the ruling on it and he has a black color identity as well as green.

excuse that last post haha. But that really should be clarified on the card IMO! That's kinda ambiguous. But regardless, cannot be commander, unless there's something else I don't know..

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 10:05:45 PM

Lol I'm pretty sure he can't be. As you stated. No creature type is declared.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 10:07:49 PM

Cool. Really a solid question though.

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 10:15:57 PM

Here we are
711.2b While a double-faced permanent's back face is up, it has only the characteristics of its back face. The back face doesn't have a mana cost; it has the colors in its color indicator (see rule 202.2e).

To the left of the type line is the color indicator. So for {Withengar Unbound} his color identity is black.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 10:25:05 PM

Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 10:15:57 PM
Here we are
711.2b While a double-faced permanent's back face is up, it has only the characteristics of its back face. The back face doesn't have a mana cost; it has the colors in its color indicator (see rule 202.2e).
To the left of the type line is the color indicator. So for {Withengar Unbound} his color identity is black.

interesting. Is this true of the front face? If not, then it would be considered black as well as a legendary creature, therefore capable of being commander, if not, it is a colorless legendary artifact.

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 10:31:24 PM

701.25c Although transforming a permanent uses the same physical action as turning a permanent face up or face down, they are different game actions. Abilities that trigger when a permanent is turned face down won't trigger when that permanent transforms, and so on.

* Each face of a double-faced card has its own name, types, subtypes, power and toughness, abilities, and so on. While a double-faced card is not on the battlefield, consider only the characteristics of its front face. While a double-faced card is on the battlefield, consider only the characteristics of the face that's currently up. The other set of characteristics is ignored.

This is interesting. It doesn't check the back side while not in play. Makes it confusing. I still think for commander purposes you can only include it in a deck with black because if it flips the identity is black.

ApexPredator · February 17, 2014, 10:31:59 PM

Can we get this moved to the rules section please.

FustyDavorite · February 17, 2014, 10:49:06 PM

Quote from: NightWolf on February 17, 2014, 10:31:59 PM
Can we get this moved to the rules section please.

yes. Please. One of the more intriguing rules encounters I've had in a while though. I've actually never seen anyone play a double sided card as commander.

Sparkle Ninja · February 17, 2014, 10:53:32 PM

What about {Grimoire of the Dead}? is that thing's colour Identity black too?