Is non truth a lie?

[Mlerner12]

Hi want to have other people's opinions on this. Is it a lie if you say something not true  you THINK is true? Maybe a 3 year old thinks 1+1 is 3, and says that, thinking it's true. Is that a lie?

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

No. People use "lie" as a substitute for "deception", "incorrect" and apparently "opinion". A lie is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth".

[Piotr]

Not at all if it doesn't hurt others. If it does and they can prove it, then it is a lie to them, to the victim.

[Kareason]

I'm with Argus on this. A lie is a statement of false information with knowledge of its incorrect nature. Otherwise it is simply misinformation.

[Dudecore]

White lies are still lies, even If its said to not harm another. I don't see telling lies as harming others, or doing something that one would not want to be done to them - I think Piotr's interpretation is dubious. However, he does own this place and has the right to enforce whatever he'd like. You reserve the right to not use it. 

[Piotr]

White lies are still lies, even If its said to not harm another. I don't see telling lies as harming others, or doing something that one would not want to be done to them - I think Piotr's interpretation is dubious. However, he does own this place and has the right to enforce whatever he'd like. You reserve the right to not use it.

Really? How about when I lie to you that I'm not a scammer from Nigeria but a diplomat with 56 million dollars to share? Am I really protected by free speech?

[Dudecore]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation. You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth. You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

[Piotr]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation.

That's not what I was asking, i was asking whether you can punish me for lying in that concrete example.

You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth.

Of course, that's why I pick up lies which are possible to prove.

You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

What do you mean?

[Dudecore]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation.

That's not what I was asking, i was asking whether you can punish me for lying in that concrete example.

You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth.

Of course, that's why I pick up lies which are possible to prove.

You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

What do you mean?

It is not my responsibility to punish you, because something has not been done. If I did take your deal, and get ripped off - if no force was used, or aggression, I cannot punish you. It was a willful engagement for us to trade things.

The last example is- no one is forcing you to be a socialist by explaining socialist ideas. You remain fully liberated from socialism, unharmed and uninterested in its tenets.

So much as I try my best to not argue with Theists, Pro-Lifers, Pro-Death Penalty, Socialist, racists and other aggressive forces - they offer nothing to me intellectually. I could consider them liars, but I'm not dependent on them. They resist punishment by their very nature, they're not my captors.

[Piotr]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation.

That's not what I was asking, i was asking whether you can punish me for lying in that concrete example.

You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth.

Of course, that's why I pick up lies which are possible to prove.

You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

What do you mean?

It is not my responsibility to punish you, because something has not been done. If I did take your deal, and get ripped off - if no force was used, or aggression, I cannot punish you. It was a willful engagement for us to trade things.

The last example is- no one is forcing you to be a socialist by explaining socialist ideas. You remain fully liberated from socialism, unharmed and uninterested in its tenants.

It is never your responsibility to punish, even if you are the victim, you can decide to forgive or ignore. The hypothetical agreement would be under a lie, and would be illegal under iMtG law, same as under US law. We are compatible in this example.

The trouble with socialism is that it is not voluntary. When socialists win elections, honest people are harmed in real way. I'm one of them. Spreading socialist lies helps socialists win elections, true or false?

[Dudecore]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation.

That's not what I was asking, i was asking whether you can punish me for lying in that concrete example.

You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth.

Of course, that's why I pick up lies which are possible to prove.

You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

What do you mean?

It is not my responsibility to punish you, because something has not been done. If I did take your deal, and get ripped off - if no force was used, or aggression, I cannot punish you. It was a willful engagement for us to trade things.

The last example is- no one is forcing you to be a socialist by explaining socialist ideas. You remain fully liberated from socialism, unharmed and uninterested in its tenants.

It is never your responsibility to punish, even if you are the victim, you can decide to forgive or ignore. The hypothetical agreement would be under a lie, and would be illegal under iMtG law, same as under US law. We are compatible in this example.

The trouble with socialism is that it is not voluntary. When socialists win elections, honest people are harmed in real way. I'm one of them. Spreading socialist lies helps socialists win elections, true or false?

I could say the same of democracy. Capitalists in collaboration with governments have been known to hurt people in very real ways as well. Socialism being spread through ideas are adopted by the misguided, but Operation Mind-crime cannot commence. While spreading socialist lies may be one way for them to win elections, there are a number of different ways, through force and misdirection.

The problem you have is with socialists, I do not see "do not lie" as a solution to the problem you have. Any ideas can be called into question, and anything can be made into a slippery slope.

[Piotr]

I'm not entitled to believe you in that situation.

That's not what I was asking, i was asking whether you can punish me for lying in that concrete example.

You do not have a monopoly on telling the truth.

Of course, that's why I pick up lies which are possible to prove.

You're not compelled to be a socialist after hearing socialist propaganda are you?

What do you mean?

It is not my responsibility to punish you, because something has not been done. If I did take your deal, and get ripped off - if no force was used, or aggression, I cannot punish you. It was a willful engagement for us to trade things.

The last example is- no one is forcing you to be a socialist by explaining socialist ideas. You remain fully liberated from socialism, unharmed and uninterested in its tenants.

It is never your responsibility to punish, even if you are the victim, you can decide to forgive or ignore. The hypothetical agreement would be under a lie, and would be illegal under iMtG law, same as under US law. We are compatible in this example.

The trouble with socialism is that it is not voluntary. When socialists win elections, honest people are harmed in real way. I'm one of them. Spreading socialist lies helps socialists win elections, true or false?

I could say the same of democracy. Capitalists in collaboration with governments have been known to hurt people in very real ways as well. Socialism being spread through ideas are adopted by the misguided, but Operation Mind-crime cannot commence. While spreading socialist lies may be one way for them to win elections, there are a number of different ways, through force and misdirection.

The problem you have is with socialists, I do not see "do not lie" as a solution to the problem you have. Any ideas can be called into question, and anything can be made into a slippery slope.

I do not need 'do not lie' in the iMtG law to make socialism illegal under it. It is illegal to force people to pay for someone else's insurance under Golden Rule, it is enough to stop socialism.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

Actually the Ultimate Law uses the Negative Golden Rule or the "Silver Rule" which is "One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated." the Golden Rule is "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." which could be used to force socialism by making others share their wealth with less fortunate. If you were rich and put yourself in the place of the poor you would be obligated to treat them as you would like them to threat you and help them out.

But back to your normally scheduled thread about lying, I stand by the opinion I presented in my first post in this thread.

[Piotr]

Actually the Ultimate Law uses the Negative Golden Rule or the "Silver Rule" which is "One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated." the Golden Rule is "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." which could be used to force socialism by making others share their wealth with less fortunate. If you were rich and put yourself in the place of the poor you would be obligated to treat them as you would like them to threat you and help them out.

I stand corrected, thanks

[Langku]

Actually the Ultimate Law uses the Negative Golden Rule or the "Silver Rule" which is "One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated." the Golden Rule is "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." which could be used to force socialism by making others share their wealth with less fortunate. If you were rich and put yourself in the place of the poor you would be obligated to treat them as you would like them to threat you and help them out.

But back to your normally scheduled thread about lying, I stand by the opinion I presented in my first post in this thread.

While we're teasing words apart I would like to disagree with your assumption that the Golden rule forces any agenda. I believe Christ intentionally worded it so that it only applies to one user personally and is not be used to influence others toward one's own ends. That is, assuming the original Aramaic, cultural context, and oral tradition remain fully in tact 😉.