Teferi's puzzle box + notion thief

[Keyeto]

Would he work with {howling mines}?

Yep! Any time they draw a card other than the first alotted by the draw step.

[Tsaos]

I used Notion Thief with Time Reversal and Spiraling Embers.  We usually play multiplayer games, so it hurts bad when it goes off

[AgnosticGod]

I used {Notion Thief} with {Time Reversal} and {Spiraling Embers}.  We usually play multiplayer games, so it hurts bad when it goes off

{Notion Thief}
{Spiraling Embers}
{Time Reversal}

[imreallyagoodman]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

[Keyeto]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

[imreallyagoodman]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

Wow, my friend is going to hate that answer lol.. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Mentonin]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.

[Keyeto]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.

Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.

[Mentonin]

It will have an effect on the next turn though

[imreallyagoodman]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.

Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.

So, if the opponent cannot play a spell until the draw phase has ended, and the trigger abilities of the puzzlebox and notion thief resolve during that draw step. Wouldn't the opponent not be able to respond with a card that they draw?

[Keyeto]

So.. Couldn't you cast an instant card if it is the first card you draw, before the Puzzle Box is activated? Like a Lighting Bolt to kill the Notion Thief?

Players don't get priority cast spells until the last part of the draw step, at which point the card draw and triggers have already occurred.

That is unless something uses the stack. Triggered abilities do so, meaning you can respond to them.

Indeed. I meant the abilities would have already gone off. At that point it's too late, and killing the source won't stop the effect. Maybe I was a bit unclear.

So, if the opponent cannot play a spell until the draw phase has ended, and the trigger abilities of the puzzlebox and notion thief resolve during that draw step. Wouldn't the opponent not be able to respond with a card that they draw?

Yes. Anyone may play a spell after the puzzle box triggers.

[Mentonin]

There are three situations when a player can add something to the stack:
• when a phase ends (stack is cleared and nothing else is to happen. It is still considered to be in the phase which is ending, not the one which will begin)
• when it is your main phase and the stack is clear (sorcery speed)
• when something new is added to the stack

So, in normal conditions, you cannot play anything during draw phase, except when it ends. The puzzle box adds a trigger to that phase, though, which uses the stack. This means you can play instants in answer to that trigger, even if it is the draw phase.

[imreallyagoodman]

There are three situations when a player can add something to the stack:
• when a phase ends (stack is cleared and nothing else is to happen. It is still considered to be in the phase which is ending, not the one which will begin)
• when it is your main phase and the stack is clear (sorcery speed)
• when something new is added to the stack

So, in normal conditions, you cannot play anything during draw phase, except when it ends. The puzzle box adds a trigger to that phase, though, which uses the stack. This means you can play instants in answer to that trigger, even if it is the draw phase.

Ok. So the comments before made me believe that the opponent could not play at all during the draw phase, but since those abilities trigger a stack the opponent could technically play an instant if they drew it.

I believe it should look like this if I have it correct. What do you guys think?

  Draw Phase (One Card)
    Puzzle Box (Added to the stack)
    Notion Thief (Added to the Stack)
       Lightning Bolt (If the card drawn by the opponent, can be played and added to the stack)
       --Stack Done
       Lighting Bolt (Resolves, Killing Notion thief. Making the main player unable to steal cards)
       Notion Thief (Dead, unable to resolve)
    Puzzle Box (Resolves)

[Mentonin]

You got it right, except for this: if the thief dies, it's ability still resolves. It doesn't target him, so it does not become illegal. Once something hits the stack, it is independent of the source. Same happens if you draw an instant which destroys the puzzle box

[imreallyagoodman]

You got it right, except for this: if the thief dies, it's ability still resolves. It doesn't target him, so it does not become illegal. Once something hits the stack, it is independent of the source. Same happens if you draw an instant which destroys the puzzle box

Thank you for verifying sir! I actually had no idea abilities on the stack still resolved based on its target. I thought if a spell or ability is put on the stack on top of a previous (that destroys that permanent), that the previous spell on the stack fizzles.

Are you 100% on that, or anyone else want to chime in. I do believe you could be right, but this changes my understanding of how I thought the stack worked, the last 10 years of my life I have thought different lol..