Goodbye Bomber Suspect

[Dmreiss]

At what point does enough become enough?  The Colorado shooting, Connecticut, now this?  How do we show that these are not acceptable?  Right now, what we as a society are doing, is not working.  If it did, these events would not continue to happen.  Is life in prison a deterrent?  I am not sure.

And realistically, I doubt Massachusetts has the death penalty, so this is purely academic.

[Dudecore]

At what point does enough become enough?  The Colorado shooting, Connecticut, now this?  How do we show that these are not acceptable?  Right now, what we as a society are doing, is not working.  If it did, these events would not continue to happen.  Is life in prison a deterrent?  I am not sure.

And realistically, I doubt Massachusetts has the death penalty, so this is purely academic.

The death penalty is an abysmal failure as a deterrent for crime. Also, none of those crimes were committed because the perpetrators were worried about the consequence. If sentencing worked as a deterrent for crime, there would be less crime.

Crimes of passion, rationality is not trademark of those crimes. Most criminals do not imagine they will be caught, leaving the "deterrent" holding its hat. By mostly every measure we have to view data, deterrents are unreasonably ineffective. The death penalty has killed innocent people, railroaded by prosecutors and a lopsided legal system. Killing an innocent person is in fact murder, so the state has murdered people under the guise justice.

[Dmreiss]

I see your points, and understand where you are coming from.  I just cannot agree that those that have murdered deserve compassion.  Once you have crossed that threshold, I believe different measures new to be considered.  We become so concerned with the rights of the accused, that we miss the rights of the victim.

I think this may be a topic we respectfully agree to disagree and will not be sorted out over an M:TG forum, but it has been interesting.

[NyghtHawk]

Do you believe that the bomber was taking up arms against the government? That's quite a stretch.

Well, he's either a freedom fighter or a deranged psychopath that set up a bomb for his own perverted morbid satisfaction.
The general consensus is that he is a terrorist though.

Killing innocent people had nothing to do with the right to bear arms.

"I think without any doubt, if you look at why our Founding Fathers put it there, they had lived under the tyranny of King George and they wanted to make sure that these free people in this new country would never be subjugated again and have to live under tyranny,"

Wayne LaPierre, CEO of the National Rifle Association

"I think principally the Second Amendment deals with keeping the government from going astray in a tyrannical direction,"

Larry Pratt, executive director, Gun Owners of America

Those guys seem to think the purpose of the 2nd amendment is to fight tyranny. How do you think you use arms to fight tyrants?

Irrelevant to how anyone feels to the second amendment, my point was how does this relate to this in incident in any way?They killed people with bombs not guns....

[FlickerYourOwnIdentity]

Let me tell you guys something.

I am a Christian.  What does that have to do with my belief on the death penalty?  That is completely stupid, that's like saying all Muslims believe that terrorism is the way.

And, if a serial killer decides to kill people with a gun, the government should not take away the right to bear arms because of that serial killer.  And even if they did, that serial killer would use an alternate weapon, like a knife, or an axe.  Anything, and people would be able to protect theirselves like they would have been able to with arms.

What if we applied this reasoning to cars.  Imagine if a person was killing people off by hitting them with a car that he steals.  He Isnt caught, and we don't know what to do.  Does that give the government the right to completely get rid of cars to stop this person.

Just my 5 cents

[Birdbrain]

If we found a way to make him feel the full impact of what he has done, that might be punishment enough because it would be staggering. Though, I admit, that would be almost impossible to do

[Mikefrompluto]

Let me tell you guys something.

I am a Christian.  What does that have to do with my belief on the death penalty?  That is completely stupid, that's like saying all Muslims believe that terrorism is the way.

Thou shalt not kill, let those who are without sin throw the first stone, if someone slaps you, turn and offer them the other cheek, grant forgiveness to those who ask for it. Are these not things found in the bible?

[Birdbrain]

Let me tell you guys something.

I am a Christian.  What does that have to do with my belief on the death penalty?  That is completely stupid, that's like saying all Muslims believe that terrorism is the way.

Thou shalt not kill, let those who are without sin throw the first stone, if someone slaps you, turn and offer them the other cheek, grant forgiveness to those who ask for it. Are these not things found in the bible?

yes they are

[Mikefrompluto]

Let me tell you guys something.

I am a Christian.  What does that have to do with my belief on the death penalty?  That is completely stupid, that's like saying all Muslims believe that terrorism is the way.

Thou shalt not kill, let those who are without sin throw the first stone, if someone slaps you, turn and offer them the other cheek, grant forgiveness to those who ask for it. Are these not things found in the bible?

yes they are

They apply to all crimes. Not just ones you pick and choose. All or nothing. That's what being a Christian has to do with whether you agree with the death penalty or not.

[Piotr]

Let me tell you guys something.

I am a Christian.  What does that have to do with my belief on the death penalty?  That is completely stupid, that's like saying all Muslims believe that terrorism is the way.

Thou shalt not kill, let those who are without sin throw the first stone, if someone slaps you, turn and offer them the other cheek, grant forgiveness to those who ask for it. Are these not things found in the bible?

yes they are

They apply to all crimes. Not just ones you pick and choose. All or nothing. That's what being a Christian has to do with whether you agree with the death penalty or not.

Terribly sorry to interrupt but I just had an possibly relevant thought experiment: if your brother rapes and kills my daughter, and you use force to prevent me from killing him as the punishment, can I respond with force, please?

[FlickerYourOwnIdentity]

Mike, has God not killed people for their transgressions???

[Coffee Vampire]

Mike, has God not killed people for their transgressions???

Are you God? Sorry to seem trollish but the question poses a legitimate point. Just because God has killed people (in the Old Testement, where a lot of old laws have become obsolete due to Christ's redemption, I might add), it doesn't give Christians the right to do the same

I do not believe the death penalty is a deterrant. Obviously, it doesn't work like that. I do believe that convicted murderers should not ever be allowed to be in society again. I support life in prison for anyone who consciously kills a person, or (like the bomber), multiple people. With NO chance of getting out.

However, people get out after killing all the time. Of course, the death penalty isn't a way to scare people into not killing, but it prevents them from killing again; thus saving lives. Isn't that what we do in war, kill to save lives? Are we fighting a war in our own country?

These are questions that sometimes can be hard to answer, and it's hard to say when to kill. When is it murder, or when is it protection? This debate, like abortion and gun control, is impossible. Both sides want all or nothing.

[FlickerYourOwnIdentity]

No coffee we are not god, but you get the point.

[Piotr]

Mike, has God not killed people for their transgressions???

Are you God? Sorry to seem trollish but the question poses a legitimate point. Just because God has killed people (in the Old Testement, where a lot of old laws have become obsolete due to Christ's redemption, I might add), it doesn't give Christians the right to do the same

I do not believe the death penalty is a deterrant.

Of course you're right, punishment is not a deterrent, nor it is a redemption time vessel for the lawbreakers. It should only be about restitution (not possible to raise dead) and retribution (full logical 1 life = 1 life punishment sounds legit to me).

[Gorzo]

So you're saying I'm worse than a sociopath who has raped and murdered 3000 people if I believe the only way to keep society safe from an indomitable monster is regrettably have to put him to death? I think you're stretching it a little far there :P

In a perfect world, no one would need the death penalty. In a perfect world, no heinous crimes would be committed to warrent such a thing. We don't live in a perfect world.

I know it's a hot button issue, but let's keep it in perspective. Both sides bring very valid points to this debate, and ignoring the other side just because you disagree, and calling them terrible people, is not a good way to represent your opinions.

I do believe in the death penalty, but only for -extreme- cases of dangerous individuals. I don't -like- it, I don't want people to be put to death, and wish there a logical, efficient alternative where no one would die or be hurt. but believe it is necessary for the good of society. It's not about revenge. It's not about retribution. I am not a savage. I am not a hypocrite. I am a kind, caring, empathic, loving, smart, logical human being who just wants the best for everyone.

And if I ever did something so terrible, so gruesome and inhuman as to ruin hundreds of lives...you damn well better kill me.