Gruul Charm, Mind Control

[Double-O-Scotch]

This is by far the most confusing topic I've ever discussed on here. The last time, I asked what happened to a {mind control}'d {karona, false god} and all I remember is being advised to simply not do it...lol. As karona is my EDH general, I would REALLY love to know what happens with this particular mechanic.

[Keyeto]

I'm not going to post the whole ruling, because my god, does it get ridiculous. With these effects, they all apply in layer 2 (control of cards). With these types of effects, the last effect, or the last spell toget a "timestamp" takes precedence and overrules the other.
If you guys are feeling up to it, read on rule 613 and all 4 million of its subsections

[Double-O-Scotch]

Thanks keyeto!

[Fenster]

The way i always saw it was like this.
Ape is sitting here in my lap.
My opponent gets his "attention" with a blinking light!(mind control)The ape now only stares at the blinking light. Then i flash a stronger light and the ape turns back to me! (gruul charm).
But when the strong light fades the ape turns back to the continously blinking light.


Tldr: Why is charm considered a constantly blinking light when nothing at all says it is?

[Keyeto]

The way i always saw it was like this.
Ape is sitting here in my lap.
My opponent gets his "attention" with a blinking light!(mind control)The ape now only stares at the blinking light. Then i flash a stronger light and the ape turns back to me! (gruul charm).
But when the strong light fades the ape turns back to the continously blinking light.


Tldr: Why is charm considered a constantly blinking light when nothing at all says it is?

Try and think of it this way. Mind control doesn't say "Gain control of target creature for as long as Mind Control is on the field". It just says "Gain control of target creature". It happens once and then it's over. The confusing thing, is that it is in enchantment form. But nonetheless, it's a one shot effect.

[Double-O-Scotch]

Precisely. We always used to treat {control magic} / {mind control} as a constant effect...just like every other aura. If my opponent {act of treason}s my creature with a rancor on it, when it smacks me in the face, I'm pretty sure it will be for +2 and trample. If they {mind control}'d the same rancored creature, it would still be rancored for as long as it lives. Confucius say what?

[Keyeto]

I think this is as simple as I can make it:

Both Mind Control and Gruul Charm generate control-changing effects, and both are applied on the same layer. Neither of them have a time restraint on the card, so unless otherwise interrupted, neither effect will end. Because of that, the newest timestamp "wins."

Does this make sense?

[scarsabrex]

Time stamps. End of discussion.

[Keyeto]

Time stamps. End of discussion.

Simply put, yes.

And just to complicate things again....
When applying continuous effects, such as Mind Control or Gruul Charm's "control" effects, the game checks the state of the card in 7 different layers. Layer 2 is control (if you want to see all the layers, Rule 613 is the way to go).

613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.

That being said, the last effect that received a timestamp is applied, and overrides the other.

RESOLVED

[Double-O-Scotch]

So when does iKeyeto app come out? lol

[Keyeto]

So when does iKeyeto app come out? lol

When the world is in need of MtG rules questions that can only be explained in overly complicated ways, iKeyeto shall heed its cry.

[Fenster]

Ok i get it... I've been confused because of dotp 2012. I played mindcontrol on a creature then my opponent cast {Cultural exchange} but after that i got both creatures.
Thanks yall