Gideon, CoJ

[rarehuntertay]

I would say this. The loyalty and -1/-1 counters exist independently of each other. The -1/-1 counters only effect Gideon when he turns into a creature. At that time, he turns into a creature with P/T based on the number of loyalty counters on him. Then his P/T will be decreased based on number of -1/-1 counters on him. However, the loyalty counter stays the same.

[Kaleo42]

119.3c: Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.

This is worded just like the infect causing -1/-1 counters. These are both inherent replacement effects within the game.

306.5b: A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).

616.1.: If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

By this I would rule the controller of gideon chooses which result they would prefer.

Edit: I messaged an L2 about it to make sure. If infect is a property of damage not a replacement effect (which I am leaning toward) then the planeswalker damage replacement rule would override infect period.

[Gorzo]

This needs to be on the DCI judge tests.

I'm also at a loss of confidence. But my gut reaction is that Gideon would both lose loyalty AND recieve -1/-1 counter. My reasoning is that (and forgive me for not fetching the actual rulings like Kaleo did, I'm sick right now and my brain is lazy because of it):
A) Infect DEALS DAMAGE to creatures in the form of -1 counters.
B) if a Planeswalker is DEALT  DAMAGE, it loses loyalty equal to the damage taken, so Gideon should lose loyalty because he was in fact dealt damage.
C) Because he's still a creature taking infect damage, he recieves -1 counters as opposed to getting pinged towards his toughness. There's no reason I can think of that Gideon should NOT recieve the -1/-1 counters.

That is my logic and thought process. I'm not 100% confident, though, and would love to hear from that L2!

[Kaleo42]

Still waiting to here back from the L2 (he's a teacher so have to wait till after school hours). I have limited it down to two possibilities.

One, infect and loyalty counter removal are both replacement effects there for the affected permanent's  controller makes the choice which to apply.

Two (more likely), infect is a property of damage which all damage is replaced with loyalty counter removal when dealing with planeswalkers there for only loyalty counters are removed.

[Kaleo42]

To clearify. Properties of damage are things like lifelink, deathtouch, and possibly infect. They do not use the stack or get affected by state-base checks. They are simple additional rules to how damage is dealt, applied, and considered lethal.

[Gorzo]

119.3d: Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.

None of the rules about infect say that it's no longer considered damage, so why shouldn't Gideon lose loyalty?

702.89c: Damage dealt to a creature by a source with infect isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.

Maybe because it isn't "marked?" But he's still taking damage, it's just not marked on him...

I dunno about this man, I want to hear from that L2 :P

[Kaleo42]

Ok i got the answer. Both actions (loyalty and -1/-1 counters) are aplicable and therefore both happen. Wow...

[rarehuntertay]

So he loses both loyalty and gains -1/-1 counters?

[Anoobass]

I kinda feel proud about stumping everyone.  I also agree about the DCI test, since I would like to take it I get a free answer :P.  Thanks to everyone for looking up the rules and answering this question.  You guys are the best :).

[Gorzo]

Woot, score 1 for my guy instincts!

Many thanks to your L2!