Tie breakers at FNM

Vampyvyrus · June 09, 2013, 08:02:21 PM

Ok so my question is how do they do the tie breakers when multiple people have the same record. Not long ago I was in a tourny where I went 5-1 yet took 7th place. There was only one undefeated player and this player was who I lost my only match to. During the tourny I beat the guy that took 2nd 3rd and 5th. In my eyes I should have been in 2nd place as my only loss was to the guy who went undefeated and I beat those top finishers. I ended up walking away with nothing in winnings.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Keyeto · June 09, 2013, 09:10:16 PM

When it comes to organized events, tiebreakers are an interesting thing to deal with. In such a case, the winner of the tiebreaker will be determined by opponent win percentage. What this means, is that any people with the same record will have their opponents looked at. Whoever's opponents had better records wins the tiebreaker and moves on. This is basically to ensure that whoever fought the harder opposition will make it through, even if their own score is the same as someone who fought "weaker" opponents.

Example: Two people have a record of 5-1.

The first player won against players who had records such as 1-3 and 2-2.

The second player won against players who scored something like 3-1 and 4-0.

The second player would advance since he fought the stronger opposition. These numbers are completely made up, but the numeric values should get the point across.

Vampyvyrus · June 09, 2013, 10:51:37 PM

Do basically my understanding is correct and I just got hosed by someone who'd rather see their friends win?

Keyeto · June 09, 2013, 11:06:36 PM

Quote from: Vampyvyrus on June 09, 2013, 10:51:37 PM
Do basically my understanding is correct and I just got hosed by someone who'd rather see their friends win?

I would hope not. What probably happened was the people who moved on fought players who had a better record. Since they fought stronger opponents, they moved on instead of you. The pairings try to keep people as close as possible record-wise, but eventually people are going to fight people with better/worse records.

What probably happened was something similar to my example. In that example, you would have been the first player. You were just unfortunate enough to fight the people who had worse records, so the other player(s) moved on instead of you.

Bookmeister · June 09, 2013, 11:09:36 PM

If it is a sanctioned tournament the software determines tiebreakers and the organizers can not just "give their friends" tiebreakers.

Vampyvyrus · June 09, 2013, 11:26:44 PM

They didn't use any software to determine the winners. I didn't even take damage until the fourth round and that was the round I went 1-2. My overall record was 11-3. I don't see how the guys that placed higher then me fought better opponents then me when I beat them...the 2nd 3rd and 5th place guys only losses came from me and my only loss came from the 1st place guy. Shouldn't I have placed higher?

Vampyvyrus · June 09, 2013, 11:30:30 PM

My other wins were against people with 2 losses. One wast friend who took 8th at 4-2 he lost to me and the 1st place guy

Keyeto · June 09, 2013, 11:49:23 PM

Quote from: Vampyvyrus on June 09, 2013, 11:26:44 PM
They didn't use any software to determine the winners. I didn't even take damage until the fourth round and that was the round I went 1-2. My overall record was 11-3. I don't see how the guys that placed higher then me fought better opponents then me when I beat them...the 2nd 3rd and 5th place guys only losses came from me and my only loss came from the 1st place guy. Shouldn't I have placed higher?

Its hard to say. Unless you pull the info of all of their matches, then there's really no way to know. Your single matchup with them was only a small part of their entire matchup record. The other players they beat must have had better records than the other players you beat.

Did you ask anybody of authority there about this? Only they would really know about the reasons. Without everyone's records, I can only give you educated guesses, unfortunately.

Vampyvyrus · June 10, 2013, 01:02:56 AM

They said they had a meeting with the 3 guys hosting it and they decided to do it off "potential" since there was supposed to be another round. Apparently my potential must have been less then the guys I already beat. I was jacked. The guy that took 1st and 2nd tried to call shenanigans too but the judges didn't care. But I figured it was bs since even the 2nd place guy told me there's no way he should've placed higher then I did.

Gorzo · June 10, 2013, 04:04:51 AM

http://community.wizards.com/wiki/Tournament_Organizer's_Handbook:_Section_C

Section C.4 explains how tiebreaks work in Swiss-Draw tournaments. In painful detail.

Anyone running a DCI tournament should be using this method, and could lose their DCI sanctioning authority.

Vampyvyrus · June 10, 2013, 04:51:00 AM

I was tempted to make a bigger deal out of it at the time but it was 4am and I was exhausted. The guy that took 3rd didn't win against anyone that placed higher then I did whicht was a large part of what made me mad.

In the future if it ever happens again I will pull the rules up online and prove my point. This situation is the main reason I haven't been playing Fnm.