Persist

[Tthmax]

Hey,

When a creature with persist is sact, and then enters the battlefield again with a -1/-1 counter, then you give it a +1/+1 counter via say a Gavony township, can you do the persist trick again because the -1 and +1 counters balance each other out so the P/T is still the same?

I thought they were specific counters.

Many thanks

[Giggle the Draco Genius]

The way mtg works this is a +1/+1 counter will be erased by a -1/-1 counter as to not have both at the same time. So if you could reliably give your persist creatures +1/+1 they would never stop persisting the elf from the scars block is good for thy as well can't remember her name. You can't get poison counters and your creatures can't get -1/-1 or something like that

[Tthmax]

I knew the Melira, but they try to be safe thus giving it a +1/+1 counter. I though there were creatures like {gilder bairn} doubling explicit counters but its actually true? Feels strange to just pretend there are no counters anymore, but thanks!

[Pi]

rule121.3.If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.

Rule 704 defines a state based action

[Tthmax]

So be it .

Thanks!

[Kaleo42]

It's important to know that the statebase action of being placed in the graveyard do to no toughness overrides this. For example you have a {strangleroot geist}  with a +1/+1 counter and someone plays {black sun's zenith} for an amount equal to or bigger than it's current toughness it will die to a statebase check before the counters are equalized causing it not to come back into play even though it has undying since at the time of death it had both +1 and -1 counters.