Had this happen at FNM the other night.
A {Geralf's messenger} died and came back to play. So it had a +1+1 counter on it. Later in the match my opponent targeted his messenger with a card that allowed Hume to put a -1-1 counter on the messenger and then sacrifice it to destroy one of my creatures. He then Had the undying trigger again. I didn't think that it would because he didn't remove the +1+1counters.
Did he use {Bone Splinters}?
How/when did he take the counters off?
did he use {Ghoulflesh} or something? You said he didn't remove counters, just giving a creature -1/-1 doesn't remove counters. Oh, or {Tragic Slip}? He'd need to do something like play {Black Sun's Zenith} for one or use a {Fume Spitter} or something.
Quote from: Maximo on August 05, 2012, 11:42:33 AM
did he use {Ghoulflesh} or something? You said he didn't remove counters, just giving a creature -1/-1 doesn't remove counters. Oh, or {Tragic Slip}? He'd need to do something like play {Black Sun's Zenith} for one or use a {Fume Spitter} or something.
He said he used something to put a -1-1 counter on his creature.
{fume spitter} more than likely if hes playing zombies.
He did say it was a -1/-1 counter. But I've been confused, if a creature has -1/-1 and a +1/+1 counters, they cancel each other out? I thought they were both there, just not accomplishing anything.
+1/+1 counters remove -1/-1 counters and visa versa, BUT only after state based is checked. Meaning what he did was legal, but if he had {skinrender} the messenger would have died with 3 -1/-1 counters and a +1/+1 counter which would keep it from returning.
Make sense?
The next time the state is checked -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters will annihilate each other.
The tricky thing is that if there are enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it'll go to the gy simultaneously to the counters. Undying will check the creature just before it died. At that point, it had both counter types on it.
That's one of the things I like about {Black Sun's Zenith}, you can put just one -1/-1 counter on all you undying guys to remove their +1/+1, or you can make it big enough to kill undying creatures with a counter and they won't come back.
Sorry should have been more specific. He played a {bone splinters} and then a {fume spitter}. His messenger should not have come back right.
Part of {bonesplinter}'s cost is sacrifice. So if the geralf's already had a +1/+1 counter it would already be too late to save it with fumespiter by placing a -1/-1. Done in the reverse order would work fantasticly though.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on August 05, 2012, 12:55:49 PM
Part of {bonesplinter}'s cost is sacrifice. So if the geralf's already had a +1/+1 counter it would already be too late to save it with fumespiter by placing a -1/-1. Done in the reverse order would work fantasticly though.
This. Sac the spitter, put -1/-1 on the Messanger, THEN sac it to bone splinters.
Ok so one of each type of counter will cancel out.
Quote from: Thattallguy on August 07, 2012, 09:39:28 AM
Ok so one of each type of counter will cancel out.
Yes, the next time the state is checked.
What happens to the counter, If the card reads, creature gets -1/-1. Instead of place a -1/-1 counter, is there a difference?
Non-counter pluses and minuses (or buffs and nurfs as I like to call 'em) don't remove counters.