{Skinrender} vs {Rotting Fensnake}
Contention 1: aggression
I'm going to start by asserting that 5 power for the snake is more aggressive and forces your opponents to deal with it fast. The low toughness is negligible since you can reanimate it again for more beats.
I don't know what to tell you. {Skinrender} all the way. I never thought I'd see these two compared and never thought the snake would be somebodys preferred choice.
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 12:32:57 AM
I don't know what to tell you. {Skinrender} all the way. I never thought I'd see these two compared and never thought the snake would be somebodys preferred choice.
"{Skinrender} all the way" isn't exactly a compelling argument. And yes, I'm willing to take the underdog's side.
Case one: you've done a great job clearing you opponent's board. {Skinrender}'s ability in manditory, so if you cast it on an empty board it would kill itself or one of your own creatures.
I'm sorry. I've never been the best at debates lol. I see the snake easily taken care of and it doesn't do anything. A chump block and he is gone. And it's not really that easy to reanimate him. Render can make a big difference just by hitting the table and then can be a useful blocker. Stops Titans, as you've made it a 3/3 with one of your own to block and kill it.
(skinrender)
Contention 1: mobile removal
Skinrender itself is a removal spell that can kill or maim any creature permanently (better than most spot removals) for four mana, it effectively shrinks a larger threat and decimates smaller ones. On top of that, it can simply be used as a 3/3 that walks.
Addressing opposing contention 1
Rotting snake is a vanilla 5/1 creature that dies to a 1/1. You would require the board to be completely Empty, and the opposing hand to be free of playable cards. Otherwise it's an investment that does not pay off.
Good rebuttal!
Now, what do you mean by "not easy to reanimate"?
About the chump blocking, if you are applying lots of pressure with early zombies, hopefully you are well on your way to winning a war of attrition and you opponent will be running low on chumps. Obviously, you wouldn't attack into a bad exchange.
I have no problem keeping {Skinrender} in my hand until an opponent plays a creature. None whatsoever. A two for one.
Addressing chump blocking
Obviously you would not attack into a imminent death, which is one more reason that rotting snake is far inferior. For four mana essentially, you have played something that will get value under the condition that your opponents plays nothing for the rest of the game. When rotting snake is forced to sit idle, the card gets no value.
Well as far as Standard play is, which is all I have experience in really, it's not common or cheap to return a card from the graveyard to your hand. And I'd still maintain if you're going to bring back a card, make it Skinrender.
I suppose the snake can be a mean blocker in itself. Can take down some baddies.
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 01:08:42 AM
Well as far as Standard play is, which is all I have experience in really, it's not common or cheap to return a card from the graveyard to your hand. And I'd still maintain if you're going to bring back a card, make it Skinrender.
I suppose the snake can be a mean blocker in itself. Can take down some baddies.
Addressing blockers
It may stop attacks from large(r) creatures, but it still will not block smaller creatures well. Assuming they do not play any removal. Aside from that, the real threats that you should fear are bigger than five toughness
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 01:08:42 AM
Well as far as Standard play is, which is all I have experience in really, it's not common or cheap to return a card from the graveyard to your hand.
I suppose the snake can be a mean blocker in itself. Can take down some baddies.
{Ghoulcaller's Chant}
{Ghoulraiser}
Also, to comment on Apple's point, if youre hitting the four drop on turn four, unless they have ramp, you wont be targeting a Titan.
Well sure, if you're playing a Zombie deck it becomes easier to return. Which limits the snake even more.
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 02:19:13 AM
Which limits the snake even more.
Why is that? It IS a zombie snake.
Snake would pwn if he had trample but I know a hypothetical argument is no argument. I would use him if he had regen like the {spined fluke} but he does not. My point is that an opponent just needs to leave a little 1/1 and your 4 drop snake is useless.
Fensnake-
He's a big enough blocker to take down some bigger creatures with a pump or equipment..
Quote from: BlackJester on November 30, 2011, 02:35:16 AM
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 02:19:13 AM
Which limits the snake even more.
Why is that? It IS a zombie snake.
Right, I know. But by your logic you get the best use out of him in a Zombie deck, essentially. Skinrender is useful in many decks. I use him in my Heartless Summoning deck, for instance.
I'm just not clear why
Quote from: MacUser001 on November 30, 2011, 02:19:13 AM
Well sure, if you're playing a Zombie deck it becomes easier to return. Which limits the snake even more.
I'm just not sure what you mean by this comment, that the snake limited because it is easy to return in a zombie deck?
I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation. With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker. Now if I had a {Skeletal Grimace} in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a {Cemetary Reaper} for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.
Quote from: Gerbil Prophet on November 30, 2011, 02:49:12 PM
I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation. With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker. Now if I had a {Skeletal Grimace} in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a {Cemetary Reaper} for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.
I must say that I am a little leary about the fact that you can't cast Skinrender on an empty board though.
Quote from: BlackJester on November 30, 2011, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: Gerbil Prophet on November 30, 2011, 02:49:12 PM
I findSskin Render to be better because he's just as easy to return, and still is viable outside of a deck with easy reanimation. With Rotting Fensnake, he really needs reanimation to be useful as more than a blocker. Now if I had a {Skeletal Grimace} in hand the fensnake would be my first choice, other than a {Cemetary Reaper} for a target. Rotting Fensnake is great if you can find a way to keep him around, but I find Skin Render more useful because he has a permanent effect on the board, even if he dies.
I must say that I am a little leary about the fact that you can't cast Skinrender on an empty board though.
Fensnake is perfect for an open board :)
Quote from: Greg54js on November 30, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
Fensnake is perfect for an open board :)
Exactly! If you hit a big board clearing {Black Sun's Zenith} or {Damnation}, you'd much rather have Fensnake to follow it up.
Orrrr, it could drop it into the graveyard to be used by Unbreathing Horde and then brought back in by Ghoulcaller's Chant... Quite the opposit of useless! I'm sure using a Vengeful Pharaoh can easily make up for it's lack of blocking anyways :) I say Fensnake for sure!
One of the points I was tryin to get at with this whole debate was the importance of keeping an open mind and to distinguish between "strictly better" and "conditionally better". There are some cards that are strictly better than others: {Runeclaw Bear} vs. {Ashcoat Bear} for example. For the most part though, card A is better than card B in some cases and in other cases card B is better. It's often not as simple to say "always use A instead of B". You need to look at the whole deck as well as the play environment.
Addressing reanimate
Why is everyone so enthused by reanimating a 5/1, with the reasons I have stated during my last few comments, wouldn't it be more beneficial to recast a walking removal? With an open board, you wouldn't need to be worried about anything anyways! And with even one creature on ur opponent's side of the board, skinrender gets tremendous value whenever that occurs.
Quote from: Appleguru56 on December 01, 2011, 01:03:27 AM
Addressing reanimate
Why is everyone so enthused by reanimating a 5/1, with the reasons I have stated during my last few comments, wouldn't it be more beneficial to recast a walking removal? With an open board, you wouldn't need to be worried about anything anyways! And with even one creature on ur opponent's side of the board, skinrender gets tremendous value whenever that occurs.
Not if they are playing Hexproof creatures: {Invisible Stalker}, {Dungrove Elder}. It's ineffective against {Inkmoth Nexus}.
5/1 you can cast when your opponent has no legal targets is better than a 3/3 that would have to kill one of your own guys.
Another difference between the two is offense versus defense. 5/1 presents a bigger threat to your opponent, and some decks would rather have an aggressive threat than an answer card. I'm thinking U/B zombies & counterspells for example.
I find the fensnake to be more annoying to be up against, I end up using removal on it anyways so I won't have to block with my other creatures and basically make them into cannon fodder. So from the opposing side of the field I say fen snake is a better choice.
Which is more likely, a completely clear board for the fensnake, or a board with a few creatures to remove with skinrender?
If you think of skinrender as more of a removal spell that gets added benefits, will you still think it is inferior? Are you people suggesting that all removals are inferior to rotting fensnake?
What I'm trying to say it that under certain conditions I'd rather be playing Fens over Skinrender. Like when I'd rather have a threat than an answer, when I am playing against a creatureless deck, like when I already have enough removal.
Personally I'd just rather run fensnake for the board presence. Besides you can always beef him up with equipments. A good one is {kite shield} that 5/1 is now a 5/4
I made that comment.
I will be defending {Skinrender}. First of all, Skinrender is removal + a solid 3/3 body, for four mana.
Secondly, if you have an empty board then you should be winning already.
Thirdly, Skinrender is even better with reanimating than the Fensnake since you can take down one large creature or two small ones.
Fourthly, Skinrender is a 2-for-1.
Fifthly, Skinrender can trade with a Titan.
Sixly, Skinrender has been in multiple fringe competitive decks.
Sevenly, Fensnake is just limited fodder.
Quote from: Prophylaxis on December 04, 2011, 02:43:26 AM
I made that comment.
I will be defending {Skinrender}. First of all, Skinrender is removal + a solid 3/3 body, for four mana.
Secondly, if you have an empty board then you should be winning already.
Thirdly, Skinrender is even better with reanimating than the Fensnake since you can take down one large creature or two small ones.
Fourthly, Skinrender is a 2-for-1.
Fifthly, Skinrender can trade with a Titan.
Sixly, Skinrender has been in multiple fringe competitive decks.
Sevenly, Fensnake is just limited fodder.
Hater's gonna make some good points. ;) Let's look at those points.
1) Okay, yes he is a solid 3/3 for four. Double black, so less splashable. NBD He can remove small, targettable creatures and cripple larger ones. so let's say "conditional removal". No good against a {Blinkmoth Well}, or {Invisible Stalker}.
2) Empty board =/= winning. You may be behind on life and just cleared the table with {Black Sun's Dawn}, {Damnation}, or other sweeper. Or trying to recover from an opponent's {Day of Judgement}.
3) A valid point. Skinner is good at removing. If you can use his ETB ability more often, so much the better.
4) This point has already been made in point one.
5) This point has already been made in points one, and three in a way.
6) So Spikes like Skinner. yay. Not everyone plays competitively.
7) This is a subjective opinion, not a point. You can derive an opinion from arguments, you can't use them as arguments.
so you really have 2 1/2 points here.
Quote from: Prophylaxis on December 04, 2011, 02:43:26 AM
Fifthly, Skinrender can trade with a Titan.
I'm assuming you mean the recent Titan cycle, and not, say, {Sundering Titan}.
Seriously, you could only expect the {Skinrender} to be able to kill three of the five Titans, mano-a-mano:
{Grave Titan}: check.
{Primeval Titan}: check (barring any pumping shenanigans).
{Sun Titan}: check (again, barring any {Oblivion Ring} or other graveyard shenanigans).
However:
{Frost Titan}: Causes the Skinrender to cost 4BB and Frosty will just tap it down on the attack.
{Inferno Titan}: "I'll declare my attack. Die Skinrender."
In all fairness, the first three are probably the bigger threats and you're more likely to see them played.
Submitted for your consideration: a deck where {Rotting Fensnake} is a better choice than {Skinrender}:
Sick'em 2.0
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php/topic,798.0.html
(I wanted to make a whole new deck, but I'm too lazy right now. So I updated one of my other decks.)
The basic idea is to equip the snake with the {Inquisitor's Flail}, cast {Berserk}, {Assault Strobe}, or {Double Cleave}, and throw it with the {Stone Giant} for 20 damage. There's other stuff going on in there, but I'll let you read.
Here's another point:
Skinrender has 4 1/2 stars on Gatherer.
Rotting Fensnake has two stars on Gatherer.
Quote from: Prophylaxis on December 06, 2011, 08:16:52 PM
Here's another point:
Skinrender has 4 1/2 stars on Gatherer.
Rotting Fensnake has two stars on Gatherer.
Touché! So I guess the popular kids in school really
were better than me. ;)