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Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: Jdogtoocool on May 29, 2012, 11:46:23 PM

Title: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Jdogtoocool on May 29, 2012, 11:46:23 PM
So is it true that if a phantasmal image compies a creature with undying and is targeted by an instant say {tragic slip}, does it really not come back from the graveyard?

If so can somebody explain it clearly
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Poof on May 29, 2012, 11:56:28 PM
I was under the impression that it does come
Back with a counter and can copy a new creature if u want
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Jdogtoocool on May 30, 2012, 12:00:16 AM
Yeah that would make sense but the people at my card shop say otherwise
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Poof on May 30, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
Well they are wrong I'm pretty sure of that
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: scarsabrex on May 30, 2012, 12:14:06 AM
image will undie as intended
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Coffee Vampire on May 30, 2012, 12:18:35 AM
I'm going to be the devil's advocate here and say the shopowner is right.

The phantasmal is a copy of say, a {Vorapede}. It dies. Now since it is a copy (EXACT SAME...same creature type, name, abilities, etc.), it has the trait of Undying. So one would think that it would come back like a normal undying card. BUT...there is one little thing:

When a card hits the graveyard, it becomes a card. Not a spell, not anything. Just a card. All memory of what it used to be is left in the dust. Including what it was a copy of. So right when the phantasmal image hits the graveyard, BAM! it turns into a regular phantasmal image.

This may be hard to understand, but let's look at something: what if a phantasmal image was cast as a copy of a {Giant Spider}, and someone {Dismember}s it? Is it still a a spider when it is in your graveyard? No, it is once again a phantasmal image card.

What I am saying is that before the undying can trigger, there is no undying effect to trigger anymore because the phantasmal image is not a copy anymore.

Not saying I'm right...but I think that looking at it from a different perspective might be helpful.

Edit: I looked online...this is wrong! But jokes on you if I convinced you! Hahaha
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Jdogtoocool on May 30, 2012, 12:18:51 AM
Maybe as it sacrifices itself and hits the graveyard it no longer is a copy of the undying and stays in the grave? Idk a buddy of mine hates phantasmal image because of this very reason
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Sagemaster on May 30, 2012, 12:29:43 AM
He does comeback because he has undying. He dies when he is sacrificed triggering undying and he can come back and copy anything :D
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Poof on May 30, 2012, 12:39:20 AM
That's a long explanation coffee unfortunately you're wrong
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
Undying says "when it dies" not when it goes to the graveyard don't now if it could come back as a different creature though.

{Phantasmal image}
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Sagemaster on May 30, 2012, 12:41:46 AM
Quote from: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
Undying says "when it dies" not when it goes to the graveyard don't now if it could come back as a different creature though
Yep. And it'll ETB again so you can choose something else to copy :D
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Coffee Vampire on May 30, 2012, 12:41:56 AM
Quote from: Poof on May 30, 2012, 12:39:20 AM
That's a long explanation coffee unfortunately you're wrong

Well now it isn't the first time and it won't be the last. Cheers!
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Poof on May 30, 2012, 12:44:34 AM
400.7d says abilities that trigger when something changes zones can find the object it became in the new zone if it is a public zone
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Poof on May 30, 2012, 12:48:38 AM
I'm guessing it's like a token hitting the graveyard momentarily before vanishig the image would hit the graveyard as copied creature
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 12:58:43 AM
Now is the +1/+1 counter going to target the {phantasmal inage} and kill it anyways
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: BlackJester on May 30, 2012, 01:01:15 AM
Quote from: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 12:58:43 AM
Now is the +1/+1 token going to target the phantasmal and kill it anyways
The undying trigger doesn't target.
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Jdogtoocool on May 30, 2012, 01:07:30 AM
Can't wait to rub it in their faces tomorrow right before draft
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 01:08:08 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on May 30, 2012, 01:01:15 AM
Quote from: Rasser on May 30, 2012, 12:58:43 AM
Now is the +1/+1 token going to target the phantasmal and kill it anyways
The undying trigger doesn't target.
Thought so, doesn't say target. Thanks
Title: Re: Phantasmal Image Q:
Post by: cltrn81 on May 30, 2012, 08:31:23 AM
OMG I spent like 10 minutes trying to explain this to a guy on Cockatrice.  I copied his undying creature but to make matters worse, explanation wise, he cast {swords to plowshares} on my image.  I first had to explain that targeting the image happens before the spell resolves, therefore I already sacrificed the image before plowshares could exile it.....then I had to go through this whole speel about the image with undying coming back in play and then he tried to say the plowshare would exile the new image and I had to explain that is was not the same target.