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Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: BadLuckIrish on May 17, 2012, 12:30:02 PM

Title: Giest Angels
Post by: BadLuckIrish on May 17, 2012, 12:30:02 PM
 Do the angels made by {Giest of Saint Traft} trigger once or do they all trigger every ens of combat? (first time ever playing Giest and {Sundial of the   Infinite}.)
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 17, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
We've been saying over and over that is does let you keep it, but now that I sit back and read it closely, I'm not 100% sure that you wouldn't lose it at the end of the next combat phase.  Is this a "one-time" trigger or a trigger every end of combat, like {Ball Lightning}?

Hmmmm.....
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Jake, Fart Sculptor on May 17, 2012, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on May 17, 2012, 12:30:02 PM
Do the angels made by {Giest of Saint Traft} trigger once or do they all trigger every ens of combat? (first time ever playing Giest and {Sundial of the   Infinite}.)
Not sure if I understand the question, but EVERY time you attack with the Geist, you get an angel tapped and attacking, he's legendary, so only one can be on the bf at a time.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: cltrn81 on May 17, 2012, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: Jake, Fart Sculptor on May 17, 2012, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on May 17, 2012, 12:30:02 PM
Do the angels made by {Giest of Saint Traft} trigger once or do they all trigger every ens of combat? (first time ever playing Giest and {Sundial of the   Infinite}.)
Not sure if I understand the question, but EVERY time you attack with the Geist, you get an angel tapped and attacking, he's legendary, so only one can be on the bf at a time.

He is saying that if you use the sundial to keep the token, which you can if u use the dial when the "sacrifice token" goes on the stack......will that token disappear the next round.  No it will not, a token is a token with no writing on it to say it has to be sacrificed.....the Geist is making you sacrifice the token and only the one he makes that round.

Edit: the Geist says to sac "that" token, meaning the one just created, not the one that you got to keep from last round by cheating the system 🔨
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 17, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Yeah, it's a one-time trigger.  I don't know why I questioned myself.  I keep forgetting that I'm never wrong, why can't I just accept that?   ;D  Jokes, jokes, jokes.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 17, 2012, 03:28:08 PM
I think the only time I've seen you be wrong is when you thought soulbond could be attached to any other creature etb even if already paired
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 17, 2012, 04:10:12 PM
Quote from: Poof on May 17, 2012, 03:28:08 PM
I think the only time I've seen you be wrong is when you thought soulbond could be attached to any other creature etb even if already paired
I have been wrong. I still think, strictly based on the wording on the card, my interpretation is correct. They do fix it in FAQ though, so I know you can't.

Specifically, I though that if you had a paired creature with soulbond in play and a new creature enters, since the new creature is unpaired the soulbond creature could "switch". 
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 17, 2012, 07:26:31 PM
The second sentence does say "they remain paired as long you control both of them". Meaning if another group was already paired this sentence would apply to them as well I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: scarsabrex on May 17, 2012, 07:45:14 PM
Quote from: Poof on May 17, 2012, 07:26:31 PM
The second sentence does say "they remain paired as long you control both of them". Meaning if another group was already paired this sentence would apply to them as well I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.

i think the reminder text is missing a crucial "must"

otherwise the reminder text miight be there just so that players know pairng doesn't end at end of turn or anything.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 17, 2012, 07:49:40 PM
Off topic:

Soulbond (You may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield. They remain paired for as long as you control both of them.)

{Nightshade Peddler} is on the BF and paired with, say, a {Llanawar Elf}.
I cast {Nettle Swine}.

Now, did an unpaired creature ETB?  Yes.
Based on this wording alone, why can't I pair the Peddler with this new unpaired creature?
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Sagemaster on May 17, 2012, 08:42:28 PM
Because peddler isn't unpaired...But I do see what you're saying
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Jake, Fart Sculptor on May 17, 2012, 08:50:58 PM
"Another unpaired creature." not "with an unpaired creature"
"another" implies that both must be unpaired.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 17, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Because of the second sentence.  It says they remain paired as long as you control both of them.  Do you still control the elf and the peddler? Are they paired yes and  Yes.  They remain paired until you don't control one of them anymore.  just like the wording states.

Soulbond says it the peddler remains paired with the elf as long as you control both of them.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Sagemaster on May 17, 2012, 09:02:17 PM
Quote from: Poof on May 17, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Because of the second sentence.  It says they remain paired as long as you control both of them.  Do you still control the elf and the peddler? Are they paired yes and  Yes.  They remain paired until you don't control one of them anymore.  just like the wording states.

Soulbond says it the peddler remains paired with the elf as long as you control both of them.

The second sentence can be interpreted as they must remain paired as long as you control them, so as long as peddler is paired it can be switched to pair with something else..
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 17, 2012, 09:07:30 PM
I don't see how anyone can make that assumption.  The second sentence follows the first and you would think when the second sentence says "they" it's referring to the two creatures you already bonded in the first sentence.

Even if you interpret it the way you say it wouldn't work because the other guy you're breaking the bond with doesn't "remain paired"
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: scarsabrex on May 17, 2012, 09:27:51 PM
everybody is forgetting that soulbond has no precedent. so the argument of how effective reminder text is doing its job is a moot point
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 17, 2012, 09:31:53 PM
I agree I don't care anymore. 
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 17, 2012, 09:36:10 PM
The wording doesn't state that the Peddler can only be paired with one creature at a time. You have to know what "paired" means in Magic-ese.  You're inferring that a soulbond creature can only bond with one other. It's still not explicit on the card. 

And, yes, I know how it really works. This argument is moot.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Poof on May 18, 2012, 01:38:46 AM
Is there an instance in magic where they used pair to mean more than 2?
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 18, 2012, 01:59:16 AM
Quote from: Poof on May 18, 2012, 01:38:46 AM
Is there an instance in magic where they used pair to mean more than 2?
Good question, let's find out:

Search > Text > pair -soulbond ('cause that's what we're talking about) - 'des'pair ('cause that's not what we're talking about) = 0
There has never been a card printed pre-AVR that describes paired, pairing, pairs, or any derivation. 
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 18, 2012, 01:03:15 PM
My point is, yes pair=2. But without any other details, why can't A and B be paired and B and C be paired?

A {Loam Lion}, {Abuna Alcolyte}, and {Avacynian Priest} walk into a bar. A pair of cats and a pair of clerics.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Quackmaster5 on May 22, 2012, 09:24:39 AM
I know this is completely off topic with the souldbound convo but figured Id post my question here then clutter the rules section with more repeat threads.

If I have {Geist of saint traft} attacking, he creates the angel. Then before my turn is over, I {cloudshift} geist. Does that null the sac trigger on Geist or does the token have the sac trigger now?
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BadLuckIrish on May 22, 2012, 09:37:04 AM
 i want to say it stays. As C18 has said its the giest that sacs the angel not the angel itself. When u exile it and it comes back it isnt "linked" to the angel anymore so it stays.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: BlackJester on May 22, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
It is not the Geist making you sac the angel, but a delayed trigger lying in wait.  This trigger is connected to the angel and if it were possible for a token to leave play and not disappear forever, you could {Cloudshift} the angel and it would come back no longer connected to the delayed trigger.  Alas, you cannot.
Title: Re: Giest Angels
Post by: Quackmaster5 on May 22, 2012, 12:22:31 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on May 22, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
It is not the Geist making you sac the angel, but a delayed trigger lying in wait.  This trigger is connected to the angel and if it were possible for a token to leave play and not disappear forever, you could {Cloudshift} the angel and it would come back no longer connected to the delayed trigger.  Alas, you cannot.

Damn. I thought about taking the geists out of my spirit deck to put them in my blinking deck for this reason. Gorammit. (this is not a typo, for those of you who don't know the reference)