iMtG Server: Gathering

Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 05, 2012, 03:01:08 PM

Title: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 05, 2012, 03:01:08 PM
What happens if {opalescense} and {Humility} come into play at the same time?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: Greg54js on May 05, 2012, 03:09:02 PM
IMO: the enchantments would become creatures with the ability of the enchantment. Then humility takes effect and causes them to lose the enchantments ability and become 1/1 they are still enchantment creatures I believe
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 05, 2012, 08:02:47 PM
But if {Humility} loses it ability doesn't it get it's abilities back but then it loses them again. Jester, HELP!!!
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: Poof on May 05, 2012, 08:09:37 PM
I would say humility is a 1/1 creature that's still an enchantment I don't think it being an enchantment counts as one of the creatures abilities
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BadLuckIrish on May 05, 2012, 08:21:46 PM
 its more of the fact that {humilty} will cause {opalescense} to stop being a creature and turn into a enchantment. Id call it quits there.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: scarsabrex on May 05, 2012, 08:42:23 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on May 05, 2012, 08:21:46 PM
its more of the fact that {humilty} will cause {opalescense} to stop being a creature and turn into a enchantment. Id call it quits there.

opalescence won't become a creature first of all regardless of whether humility is there unless another opalescence or similar effect is there. humility will be a 1/1 creature.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 08:52:12 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on May 05, 2012, 08:21:46 PM
its more of the fact that {humilty} will cause {opalescense} to stop being a creature and turn into a enchantment. Id call it quits there.
{Opalescense} won't be a creature. The question is "Will being a creature cause {Humility} to lose its own ability?".
My answer is no, for the layering reasons I said earlier.

Oops!  I didn't give the layering reasons. (I could swear I hit 'Post'! ???)

There is a page worth of description on the interaction between these two. BRB
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 09:01:42 PM
Okay, we're going to have to bust out some heavy duty rules, including continuous abilities and time stamping.

613.6g If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at that time.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 09:21:34 PM
tl;dr {Opalescense} first, {Humility} = 1/1,
{Humility} first, {Humility} = 4/4


This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers.  The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it's finished applying.

So if Opalescence and Humility are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility becomes a creature that is still an enchantment. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility loses its ability. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4. (Opalescence).  Humility becomes 1/1 (Humility).

But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility becomes a creature that is still an enchantment (Opalescence). Layer 6:  Humility loses its ability (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 (Humility).  Humility becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).

Like a Boss!
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: scarsabrex on May 05, 2012, 09:28:32 PM
so timestamps matter?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: Poof on May 05, 2012, 10:12:48 PM
So when humility becomes a creature the enchantment effect is it's ability now?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 05, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
So if humility is first it's a 4/4 if opalescense is first, humility is a 1/1.

Does that mean if humility entered first, it affects nothing, and if opalescense entered first it affects everything?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Poof on May 05, 2012, 10:12:48 PM
So when humility becomes a creature the enchantment effect is it's ability now?
Nearly all words written in the text box of a permanent are its abilities.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 10:58:24 PM
Quote from: scarsabrex on May 05, 2012, 09:28:32 PM
so timestamps matter?
Yes.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 05, 2012, 11:00:00 PM
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on May 05, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
So if humility is first it's a 4/4 if opalescense is first, humility is a 1/1.

Does that mean if humility entered first, it affects nothing, and if opalescense entered first it affects everything?
{Humility} will still remove its abilitiy regardless of timestamping.  The rest is just P/T.

Edit: it will also remove all abilities from all creatures too.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: Poof on May 06, 2012, 02:14:00 AM
So in both cases it becomes a creature and loses abilities before p/t is even assigned.  Then layer 7b is where p/t is assigned according to the order you want to choose, if they came in together.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 06, 2012, 09:58:47 AM
So humility will be a 4/4 but everything else is a 1/1 and. And if they entered the battlefield at the same time then, I choose if humility takes away abilities or not?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: scarsabrex on May 06, 2012, 10:01:17 AM
humility will always get rid of abilities.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 06, 2012, 10:02:17 AM
So everything will end up as a 1/1 no abilities no matter what?
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: scarsabrex on May 06, 2012, 10:04:20 AM
everything ELSE will end up 1/1 without any abilities. humility can be a 1/1 or 4/4 depending on time stamps.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: JaCe BeLeReN on May 06, 2012, 10:06:43 AM
Ok
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: BlackJester on May 06, 2012, 11:17:19 AM
Quote from: scarsabrex on May 06, 2012, 10:04:20 AM
everything ELSE will end up 1/1 without any abilities. humility can be a 1/1 or 4/4 depending on time stamps.
Close. Everything (all creatures and enchantments other than {Opalescence}) will lose all abilities and either be a 1/1 or P/T equal to CMC depending on time stamp.
Title: Re: Lost my mind
Post by: scarsabrex on May 06, 2012, 11:19:50 AM
oops was thinking about regular creatures not other enchantments