If you cast {fog} the activate {vengeful Archon} ability can u redirect a chunk of the damage the prevent the rest all together?
No
Yes. If you cast the {Fog} and respond by using the arcon's ability, you can.
Quote from: KulrathKnight on May 03, 2012, 03:41:56 PM
Yes. If you cast the {Fog} and respond by using the arcon's ability, you can.
This^^
Its a stack thing. The archons ability is put on the stack last so it resolves first then fog triggers preventing the rest
I don't see how you guys are doing this they would both have to resolve before combat damage is dealt at that point fog prevents all damage
Quote from: Poof on May 03, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
I don't see how you guys are doing this they would both have to resolve before combat damage is dealt at that point fog prevents all damage
Damage from the Archon is not combat damage.
They both will resolve before combat damage so stack would not matter once fog resolves it's in effect till end of turn
I think what he means poof is saybu have 13 damage coming your way. 1- Cast fog. 2- Pay X. X = 8. the archon negates 8 combat damage and the oppenent take 8 life. Then fog comes in and negates the other 5 damage
Also this ruling also reinforces what I'm trying to say both abilities will be in effect together and I think fog just makes the archons damage prevention redundant.
8/15/2010 If Vengeful Archon's ability doesn't prevent any damage (perhaps because a different prevention effect is applied to the damage that would be dealt to you, or because the damage is unpreventable), Vengeful Archon won't deal any damage itself.
And no badluck that is not what I'm trying to say fog doesn't come in after vengeful archon it's already in effect at the same time. They both will resolve before combat damage is dealt and will both be in effect together stacking them differently won't matter.
What I am trying to say is fog damage prevention overrules archons causing no damage to be dealt to opponent. That's my take on it maybe I'm wrong. But I think archon will not have a chance to prevent any combat damage because fog already prevents any from being dealt.
Okay so I looked at CR:615 and poof is right. They both have to happen at the same time regardless of how they were stacked.
Well Poof. I was wrong. And i apologise.
BlackJester says this works. Here's why:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
Quote from: BlackJester on May 03, 2012, 07:14:40 PM
BlackJester says this works. Here's why:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
Oh okay. Guess I need to familiarize myself with the rule book
Even that ruling says choose one to apply meaning u can't use both prevention effects. I still don't think it works.
You still do both, you just choose the order.
Ok so after reading the entire ruling it says choose one to apply then recheck to see if the other still applies which for fog I guess it would. It still bugs me though that with fog in effect it's like you're turning it off to allow the other ability to prevent damage.
Doesn't damage need to happen to be prevented? I mean asigning damage shouldn't be enough, it actually has to be dealt to be prevented, much like how regenerate is triggered to save a creature from lethal damage.
All damage is dealt simultaneously, so to prevent some and then another doesn't make logical sense to me.
However if something like a {shock} was placed on the stack after the fog, then you could activate the archon's ability to prevent the {shocks} damage (which would resolve first) then the fog kicks in and prevents all other damage post that point?
That's what I thought but the ruling says if two prevention effects are trying to modify something in this example it'd be combat damage it says choose one and apply it then check to see if the others apply still which would be fog but would this check happen after the event takes place? Meaning u choose the archon prevention effect combat damage goes through then you check for fog to see if it still applies which it does but wouldn't matter since combat damage passed? Meaning u took the extra damage archon didn't prevent even with fog resolved. Because if u applied fog first then archon ability wouldnt happen
Read 616.1. Say you have a 3/3 and a 4/4 attacking you. You use choose x=4 and cast fog too. Now when combat damage is about to happen, there are two effects trying to prevent four points worth. You let the Archion prevent that and fog does the rest. Simple.
Quote from: Wally on May 04, 2012, 05:53:53 PM
Doesn't damage need to happen to be prevented? I mean asigning damage shouldn't be enough, it actually has to be dealt to be prevented, much like how regenerate is triggered to save a creature from lethal damage.
All damage is dealt simultaneously, so to prevent some and then another doesn't make logical sense to me.
However if something like a {shock} was placed on the stack after the fog, then you could activate the archon's ability to prevent the {shocks} damage (which would resolve first) then the fog kicks in and prevents all other damage post that point?
first of all fog never prevents shock in any circumstance. second what you have going here are 2 replacement effects (both damage prevention). the player who controls the effects can use them whichever order they want like a layer of filters. If you let the fog filter be used first the archon filter sits unused still waiting, put the archon filter first and it does its job, the fog cleans up the rest of combat damage
Um I never suggested that the fog would stop the shock, please re-read, I was talking about the stack.
Quote from: Wally on May 05, 2012, 01:09:56 PM
Um I never suggested that the fog would stop the shock, please re-read, I was talking about the stack.
yeah but using shock was a bad example since there is little reason to stack it on fog. when you could just cast it any other time, end of turn, after combat, after fog resolves.
Quote from: scarsabrex on May 05, 2012, 04:32:15 PM
Quote from: Wally on May 05, 2012, 01:09:56 PM
Um I never suggested that the fog would stop the shock, please re-read, I was talking about the stack.
yeah but using shock was a bad example since there is little reason to stack it on fog. when you could just cast it any other time, end of turn, after combat, after fog resolves.
Okay I think the point was missed. Everyone knows fog doesn't stop shock. The point was the stacking explanation.