So when I first got this app if you posted a list in this section you got two things; honesty, and help. For instance if a deck was so far fetched from competitive formats it would be told that it is a casual deck and be moved to the casual section; honesty. Now if it was almost competitive people would contribute by saying they should replace this with this and etc. where has this gone? That help is no longer there, that honesty is no longer there. I understand that just because a deck has cards that aren't banned in modern it is technically a modern deck but it's meant for casual play, thus the casual section. All in all, I miss looking on the modern feed and seeing deep and in depth conversations as to why card a is better than card b and etc. I miss the helpful players actually contributing to decks that could use a few wise words. Finally, I miss it being flooded with decks that actually have a chance at making it to top 8 in fnm at least. I don't mean to upset anyone by this post, just miss what this section was. I could get on here every hour and Thered be a new post with vibrant conversations and now I could go three days and no one will have commented on anything. Rant over. Good day.
This is true, in addition when you attempt to tell a new user that their deck would be better suited for another section(casual) they get offended and don't come back. When in reality we aren't trying to be mean or rude, we are trying to help them do better in FNM's, comps, etc., by steering them to another format or steering them to a deck stronger in the format than the one they are attempting to use.
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 13, 2016, 11:35:48 PM
This is true, in addition when you attempt to tell a new user that their deck would be better suited for another section(casual) they get offended and don't come back. When in reality we aren't trying to be mean or rude, we are trying to help them do better in FNM's, comps, etc., by steering them to another format or steering them to a deck stronger in the format than the one they are attempting to use.
Yes.... You are correct and I know the rebuttals is they are on a budget but they are so far fetched from being competitive if they dont invest in at least some basic cards that it gets frustrating helping others
As I have said time and time again, either make it a rule for posting that casual decks can't be there, or suck it up and move on as it will never change in it's current state.
Quote from: General kiwi on April 13, 2016, 11:50:03 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 13, 2016, 11:35:48 PM
This is true, in addition when you attempt to tell a new user that their deck would be better suited for another section(casual) they get offended and don't come back. When in reality we aren't trying to be mean or rude, we are trying to help them do better in FNM's, comps, etc., by steering them to another format or steering them to a deck stronger in the format than the one they are attempting to use.
Yes.... You are correct and I know the rebuttals is they are on a budget but they are so far fetched from being competitive if they dont invest in at least some basic cards that it gets frustrating helping others
Yep. People who are getting into this game need to understand that it isn't a game where you can go win with a 5 dollar deck at a modern FNM. You need to invest in good cards to win events. It doesn't need to be the most expensive cards with {tarmogoyf}'s but you can't be afraid to drop 200-400 dollars on a deck at least. Even at that, there are mono green infect lists, mono green aggro lists that come in under 80 dollars that are competitive enough for fnm and would be gladly welcomed in the modern forums because it shows that you are attempting to be Keyword: Competitive.
"Decks (Magic The Gathering)
These boards are pretty self-explanatory. Standard decks go under standard, modern decks under modern, etc. If you don't know what the difference between the deck types is, there is a stickied post titled "(Format) Deck Construction" in each board that will tell you what sets are allowed, if there is a ban list, what is on the potential ban list, and so on. Casual is the exception. If you build a fun deck, but don't think it is competitive or just plan on having a little fun, post it under casual. "
Taken directly from the welcome forum. Key sentences in this section "Casual is the exception. If you build a fun deck, BUT DONT THINK IT IS COMPETITIVE or just plan on having a little fun, post it under casual."
If I am gonna post in Modern I go to the modern section, not the welcome section. People have short attention spans. If it isn't stickied in the Modern section right in front of people's faces, it will not be read and/remembered. Just a fact of human nature.
Personally though, if something that petty bothers me, I tend to just ignore it.
Honestly I think this falls back to the discussion a few months back of the difference between casual and competative. We have people on here who like to bash any deck posted in modern or legacy that is not pro/tournament level.
Who gets to claim one deck is not competative or not. I once built a deck which i posted in when I was rather new here. I was told it wasn't competative, but it was good enough to go 4-0 at my lgs. So in my eyes it was competative.
See the key here is,in my opinion and as codestar already said, with the phrasing of The welcome form,
"if you built a fun deck but don't think it is competative..."
I thought my deck was competative but other people at the time didn't. So what was it, competative or casual?
Another thingis what is competative now could be different from a few weeks ago, and could be different a few weeks in the future. Should we move decks back and fourth between forums as the meta changes? And how do we accurately Measure a decks compeativeness?
Tl:dr, we put to much focus on if decks are in the right forum based on "competitiveness"
Quote from: redwolv on April 14, 2016, 04:08:02 AM
Honestly I think this falls back to the discussion a few months back of the difference between casual and competative. We have people on here who like to bash any deck posted in modern or legacy that is not pro/tournament level.
Who gets to claim one deck is not competative or not. I once built a deck which i posted in when I was rather new here. I was told it wasn't competative, but it was good enough to go 4-0 at my lgs. So in my eyes it was competative.
See the key here is,in my opinion and as codestar already said, with the phrasing of The welcome form,
"if you built a fun deck but don't think it is competative..."
I thought my deck was competative but other people at the time didn't. So what was it, competative or casual?
Another thingis what is competative now could be different from a few weeks ago, and could be different a few weeks in the future. Should we move decks back and fourth between forums as the meta changes? And how do we accurately Measure a decks compeativeness?
Tl:dr, we put to much focus on if decks are in the right forum based on "competitiveness"
I had this same thing happen to me! So I agree wholeheartedly!
Decks with play sets of cards that are somewhat decent and could win an fnm then by all means okay. But if you open a post and it looks like a commander deck in the modern section because they have one of each card then it should be in casual. Right now the forums are flooded with decks that have absolutely no reason why they shouldn't just be in casual. And if you tell me that one of these singleton commander style modern decks got 4-0 at your lgs on a modern event I'm either calling bull-.poo. or you need to start attending a more competitive scene.
Another thing, this app is made to draw in competitive players as well as new players or inexperienced but when you have the decks flooding the forums the way they are then the experienced players look and see that this may not be the place they want to be. As I've said before, they want to discuss in depth as why card A is better than card B in a deck such as jund or affinity. But when those players aren't around to discuss that the newer members just flood the list and there is no discussion. Then when help or discussion is offered they bite back with "this is the way I like it and it's staying that way" who wants to help someone who doesn't want to be helped? Maybe that's why this app has lost the flare that it used to have. Where a deck would have 6 pages of discussion where as now it's lucky to even have a comment.
If you want a thread to discuss the individual cards in the staple modern decks wouldn't that be more at home in the discussion section? Just because decks you deem worthy aren't getting the feedback you think it deserves doesn't mean you should cut the "lesser" decks in favor of the "better" decks.
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 14, 2016, 09:40:04 AM
Decks with play sets of cards that are somewhat decent and could win an fnm then by all means okay. But if you open a post and it looks like a commander deck in the modern section because they have one of each card then it should be in casual. Right now the forums are flooded with decks that have absolutely no reason why they shouldn't just be in casual. And if you tell me that one of these singleton commander style modern decks got 4-0 at your lgs on a modern event I'm either calling bull-.poo. or you need to start attending a more competitive scene.
This example is what I am talking about. Sure as an experienced player I know that a singleton deck will not be competative. But a rather new player might not if he was only just introduced to the game.
And I have never had a new player on the forum snap at me for making sugestions. But I have seen other people. What it seems to me is how you express your feedback. "This deck is crap, the singles need to be cut down to make more full playests" is alot different then " I would suggest cutting some of your one-off cards to add more of a single card. This will improve consistency."
It is all about how you word and phrase it.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on April 14, 2016, 11:51:02 AM
We should have a suggestion on the main mtg forum for "Modern Collaboration" "Edh Collaboration" where it's all tips and tricks, not decm critiques
That might not be a bad idea.
This community is suffering from "The Christopher Effect".
New users joined, it got popular, people invested their time into it. It hit a "golden age".
Then two things happened.
Conflict between users, resulting in leaving, bans, decreased quality of conversations and people investing less time into the app.
People "grew up", got jobs, went to college, quit magic, forgot about the app.
Therefore most of the problem lies in the deterioration of the community IMO. Not the competitive vs casual aspect of the modern section.
However I'm for a read before posting section in each deck category that outlines what should be there. We could also tag decks, help needed, top tier, for fun.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on April 14, 2016, 06:39:36 PM
This community is suffering from "The Christopher Effect".
New users joined, it got popular, people invested their time into it. It hit a "golden age".
Then two things happened.
Conflict between users, resulting in leaving, bans, decreased quality of conversations and people investing less time into the app.
People "grew up", got jobs, went to college, quit magic, forgot about the app.
Therefore most of the problem lies in the deterioration of the community IMO. Not the competitive vs casual aspect of the modern section.
However I'm for a read before posting section in each deck category that outlines what should be there. We could also tag decks, help needed, top tier, for fun.
Makes sense. Although being a 24 year old out of college with a daughter and a baby on the way I still find time for my favorite game, so not sure when the "growing up" aspect is gonna sink in. lol
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 14, 2016, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on April 14, 2016, 06:39:36 PM
This community is suffering from "The Christopher Effect".
New users joined, it got popular, people invested their time into it. It hit a "golden age".
Then two things happened.
Conflict between users, resulting in leaving, bans, decreased quality of conversations and people investing less time into the app.
People "grew up", got jobs, went to college, quit magic, forgot about the app.
Therefore most of the problem lies in the deterioration of the community IMO. Not the competitive vs casual aspect of the modern section.
However I'm for a read before posting section in each deck category that outlines what should be there. We could also tag decks, help needed, top tier, for fun.
Makes sense. Although being a 24 year old out of college with a daughter and a baby on the way I still find time for my favorite game, so not sure when the "growing up" aspect is gonna sink in. lol
NOOO, don't grow up, it's a trap! (Said the recently-turned-34-year-old with 4 kids.)
However, to chime in on this discussion, as I expressed before in my book the difference between casual and the competitive formats lies in what you want with your deck.
Like: recently this guy was posting his decks in the Legacy section. When asked if he wanted to play these in competition, he answered: "Nah, these are just for tabletop" (paraphrasing).
So, those decks should go in casual in my book. However, if you've got a crazy idea you want to try out in a format (Selesnyeldrazi was one of my thoughts for modern), by all means that should go in the competitive sections.
I agree with you Kaylesh. As long as it's plausible, has synergy, and can compete then by all means put it in the modern, legacy, standard thread.
On another note, I'll never grow up! Growing up is for old folk!
The problem is if the deck hadn't won a pro tour with deck abc then it is not considered competitive.
The sheepishness if this forum is crazy how about some consideration on newer decks on how to tweak that deck to make slightly more competitive. Rather than give it the Scarlett letter and send it on its way.
Some ppl need to realize not everyone knows every card in the magic playbook and all they know is what they have in cardboard sitting in front of them.
Another thing is budget decks. I have a budget mono-black list. And while it might not be the most competative, it is decent considering i am trying to keep the price low.
I believe my 3rd or 4th post was over budget decks still being competitive.
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 16, 2016, 11:59:54 AM
I believe my 3rd or 4th post was over budget decks still being competitive.
So you did.
Quote from: Spencer Addington on April 13, 2016, 11:31:32 PM
The app seems to be .doing just fine. and with such a small community that adds nothing to new persons posts, we aren't exactly reeling them in.
I'd like you to take your depression away from this forum, will you? Or else I will ban you, I do not like negative people here, all right?
Quote from: Codester1991 on April 13, 2016, 10:51:22 PM
So when I first got this app if you posted a list in this section you got two things; honesty, and help. For instance if a deck was so far fetched from competitive formats it would be told that it is a casual deck and be moved to the casual section; honesty. Now if it was almost competitive people would contribute by saying they should replace this with this and etc. where has this gone? That help is no longer there, that honesty is no longer there. I understand that just because a deck has cards that aren't banned in modern it is technically a modern deck but it's meant for casual play, thus the casual section. All in all, I miss looking on the modern feed and seeing deep and in depth conversations as to why card a is better than card b and etc. I miss the helpful players actually contributing to decks that could use a few wise words. Finally, I miss it being flooded with decks that actually have a chance at making it to top 8 in fnm at least. I don't mean to upset anyone by this post, just miss what this section was. I could get on here every hour and Thered be a new post with vibrant conversations and now I could go three days and no one will have commented on anything. Rant over. Good day.
Maybe you should start iMtG Competitiveness Community Police Force. Each time you find a non-competitive deck in a competitive section, you mark it with a comment such as [NON-COMPETITIVE] and deal negative karma. It lets you steam off a little bit while providing valuable service for the community of competitive people, without overly annoying the ... others.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on April 14, 2016, 06:39:36 PM
This community is suffering from "The Christopher Effect".
New users joined, it got popular, people invested their time into it. It hit a "golden age".
Then two things happened.
Conflict between users, resulting in leaving, bans, decreased quality of conversations and people investing less time into the app.
People "grew up", got jobs, went to college, quit magic, forgot about the app.
Therefore most of the problem lies in the deterioration of the community IMO. Not the competitive vs casual aspect of the modern section.
Your analysis is false. Community here was built around a product, the best toolbox app for iOS. Not the other way round (the other way round failed miserably, or show me the app by Gorzo and the rest of the mob). People primarily leave when better products are made available. People leave when Try Play stops working, people leave when engine is not updated for 2 years. Therefore problem is now being resolved and we can expect growth of the community.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on April 14, 2016, 06:39:36 PM
However I'm for a read before posting section in each deck category that outlines what should be there. We could also tag decks, help needed, top tier, for fun.
On my TODO.
I think the point is that people were posting non-mainstream decks and the instant response was casual
No snap- casual
No goyf- casual
No lotv- casual
Birthing pod - sad face
Quote from: Dstyle1 on April 18, 2016, 10:08:35 AM
I think the point is that people were posting non-mainstream decks and the instant response was casual
No snap- casual
No goyf- casual
No lotv- casual
Birthing pod - sad face
No, the point is decks are being posted that resemble the one I just bumped in the modern section. It doesn't matter if there are no snaps, goyfs, lotv, those can be worked around budget wise.
Quote from: Taysby on April 18, 2016, 10:01:05 AM
If you're building a deck that needs tarmogoyf but you use {krisan tusker} because you don't want to spend the money, (exaggeration but you get my point, if the only reason for a card is it's cheaper than the (arguably) better card) that is when it's casual. If you do your best to make it competitive, even if it's dirt cheap, it's fine.
See this is what I meant earlier. I don't want to spend the money on tarmogoyf, but if everything else is cheep yet competative but I am using tusker is it chompetative or casual. Because you just said it is not competative and that it is because the deck is competative for its low pricepoint.
Most budget decks will not be teir 1 competative. If they were the price of its parts would rise till it is no longer budget. That said a deck that drops tarmogoyf for something else can be budget and still be teir 2 competative.
My whole issue with this whole topic is how to measure the competativeness of a deck. What teir deck is casual? Are competative decks only the tier 1 decks?
What about decks which are designed to specficly prey on the local meta?
Quote from: Taysby on April 18, 2016, 11:42:01 AM
If you personally don't have goyfs but it should be in the list (i.e. Your playing {tar fire}) have goyfs in the list then say in the comments that you personally don't have goyfs and are working to get them you're fine.
Competitive means the best it can be imo. Budget decks will generally lose to the list that spent the money on goyfs instead of using krosan tusker.
Tusker is not even close to comparable to Goyf. {Moldgraf Scavenger} is a more favorable comparison there.
However, budget decks can be competitive too, the thing is what you want to do with it. If you want to play modern FNM, or even go to a GP, your deck needs competitive advise. If you can't shell the money into 4 goyfs that would be ideal for your list, yet you try your best to make a good deck, it doesn't make it casual.
If your intention is tabletop play, that what makes it casual.
Sometimes an idea isn't viable for a format. Say trying to ramp into Emmy in modern.
Then it is a good thing to give suggestions to improve after you learn what the idea is.
Quote from: Piotr on April 18, 2016, 07:28:06 AM
Your analysis is false. The community here was built around a product, the best toolbox app for iOS. Not the other way round (the other way round failed miserably, or show me the app by Gorzo and the rest of the mob). People primarily leave when better products are made available. People leave when Try Play stops working, people leave when engine is not updated for 2 years. Therefore problem is now being resolved and we can expect growth of the community.
My analysis is not false. There's more than a few people that have quit magic and therefore the app, as well as others who have gotten too busy. You've simply stated another contributing factor.
I'd like to specifically address this,
"The community here was built around a product, the best toolbox app for iOS. Not the other way round (the other way round failed miserably, or show me the app by Gorzo and the rest of the mob)."
When did I say anything to the contrary of the community being built around the product? Just because it's built around the product does not mean that the product is the only thing keeping it together.
What on earth does any of this have to do with Gorzo? He just fits into my analysis of people getting banned.
Quote from: Noblellama on April 18, 2016, 06:45:12 PM
Technically the product the community was built around was Magic: The Gathering, the PLACE the community built ON was this ap.
False, the product you talking about is Wizards forums, not here. Here is the community based around iMtG the iOS MTG toolbox reference app.
Quote from: Noblellama on April 19, 2016, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: Piotr on April 19, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
Quote from: Noblellama on April 18, 2016, 06:45:12 PM
Technically the product the community was built around was Magic: The Gathering, the PLACE the community built ON was this ap.
False, the product you talking about is Wizards forums, not here. Here is the community based around iMtG the iOS MTG toolbox reference app.
But I am not here for Wizards, nor am I here for your toolbox, I am here for the reason that people talk about Magic here.
This forum exists here because your toolbox includes it if that's what you mean.
And I guess that means I am ABLE to be HERE because your toolbox has a forum in it, so roundabout logic could say im here because of your toolbox.
This doesn't read as well as I was hoping...hmm
I guess we just have different views on this one.
Although I love to see a couple parties disagreeing about something and having a conversation about said thing, I will be a voice of reason and say that this is pretty off topic and to get back to talking about the modern section.
As someone has mentioned above, the modern section itself is not there to simply post modern legal decks. It's more for competitive decks, and potentially competitive decks. What is potentially competitive is also a decent question.
A potentially competitive deck is something that you think will work in either an overall tournament setting, or at your local lgs, and that it is not necessarily a meta deck. But now that that is described, what could a casual deck be?
Well it could be... I dunno... Casual? Something meant for kitchen top games and such, but what is a way to differentiate the two?
Well you could say it in the beginning when posting the deck that you are trying this out at your LGS for *list of reasons here*, and you'd like to combat *whatever is meta at your LGS.*. Or if you're looking towards tourney play, say that when posting the deck. This will help commenters truly know how to help you. Another thing that could help is to post outcomes of your deck at FNM, kind of giving people results on top of what your purpose is.
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on April 19, 2016, 11:33:33 PM
Quote from: Noblellama on April 19, 2016, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: Piotr on April 19, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
Quote from: Noblellama on April 18, 2016, 06:45:12 PM
Technically the product the community was built around was Magic: The Gathering, the PLACE the community built ON was this ap.
False, the product you talking about is Wizards forums, not here. Here is the community based around iMtG the iOS MTG toolbox reference app.
But I am not here for Wizards, nor am I here for your toolbox, I am here for the reason that people talk about Magic here.
This forum exists here because your toolbox includes it if that's what you mean.
And I guess that means I am ABLE to be HERE because your toolbox has a forum in it, so roundabout logic could say im here because of your toolbox.
This doesn't read as well as I was hoping...hmm
I guess we just have different views on this one.
Although I love to see a couple parties disagreeing about something and having a conversation about said thing, I will be a voice of reason and say that this is pretty off topic and to get back to talking about the modern section.
As someone has mentioned above, the modern section itself is not there to simply post modern legal decks. It's more for competitive decks, and potentially competitive decks. What is potentially competitive is also a decent question.
A potentially competitive deck is something that you think will work in either an overall tournament setting, or at your local lgs, and that it is not necessarily a meta deck. But now that that is described, what could a casual deck be?
Well it could be... I dunno... Casual? Something meant for kitchen top games and such, but what is a way to differentiate the two?
Well you could say it in the beginning when posting the deck that you are trying this out at your LGS for *list of reasons here*, and you'd like to combat *whatever is meta at your LGS.*. Or if you're looking towards tourney play, say that when posting the deck. This will help commenters truly know how to help you. Another thing that could help is to post outcomes of your deck at FNM, kind of giving people results on top of what your purpose is.
This is an excellent suggestion. Props and positive karma to you.
Quote from: Noblellama on April 19, 2016, 11:55:02 PM
Agreed
I like the idea of saying up front
"My lgs is overrun with ______, will this work?"
Yep, my original posts from when I first joined contained these little statements and it went far.
Quote from: Noblellama on April 19, 2016, 06:14:18 PM
This forum exists here because your toolbox includes it (...)
And I guess that means I am ABLE to be HERE because your toolbox has a forum in it (...)
I guess we just have different views on this one.
Our view is the same, it is just that part of your brain is believing something which is not true, that is why you find yourself in this confused state... You do not like the logic of your own thoughts, logic which disagree with the beliefs you had... Reduce your confusion by accepting this knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
The reason why you are here in the first place is not because you were lured by the people of this community to join us. You simply agreed to share the tool which you instinctively loved with the random people you found here, and after a period of time you developed relationships with them.
What started your Gathering journey was the Card Database not Gathering itself, is what I'm saying. What made you pick this MTG forum over thousand others was the toolbox app not BlackJester or Taysby. What are proverbial BlackJester and Taysby here for? Not for you ;)