Saw this pass by on Facebook, and I'm quite disgusted.
To me, this reads as Froelich is in favor of fixing of tournaments for established pro players.
(I realize it is not the original article I'm linking, but the article on manaleak provides those).
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2016/03/ethical-for-mtg-pro-players-to-expect-opponents-to-concede/
E Fro didn't say it bc of his pro status if E Fro was an avg. Joe he'd still want his opponent to concede.
I'm on the fence about this one. On one hand I'm a fan of conceding if I'm locked and I can help somebody else get locked.
But on the other hand, he was 13-0 at a GP that's so awesome I'd definitely want to try and go 14-0 and sweep the Swiss!
His opponent obviously didn't do anything wrong but neither did E Fro players can expect a scoop in that scenario and it was fine that E Fro did and it was fine that his opponent said no.
Quote from: Taysby on March 11, 2016, 04:18:33 PM
His point in the article is don't be a dick. No matter what happens, his opponent was making it to the top 8. He needed a single win to make top 8. Just concede and both parties are in the top 8.
However, since only 8 players can be in that top 8, you shut another player out of that slot by conceding.
Let's say this happens in the NBA. Say the Bulls throw a match just to get the Lakers to get that one win to finish above the Socks, and escape relegation. (Not a clue if this makes sense name wise). That would cause huge uproar.
This is basically the same thing, especially if you'd have a favorable match-up vs the one you're conceding to.
I get the whole split of prizes agreements in prerelease finals etc, however, that doesn't shut anyone out. This does, and thus should be seen as USC IMHO.
Did the pros not work hard all day to put themselves in a position to draw/concede?
For I was E Fros opponent I'd scoop/draw but having said that if I was E Fro I would not expect my opponent to scoop/draw
Quote from: Kaylesh on March 11, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
Quote from: Taysby on March 11, 2016, 04:18:33 PM
His point in the article is don't be a dick. No matter what happens, his opponent was making it to the top 8. He needed a single win to make top 8. Just concede and both parties are in the top 8.
However, since only 8 players can be in that top 8, you shut another player out of that slot by conceding.
Let's say this happens in the NBA. Say the Bulls throw a match just to get the Lakers to get that one win to finish above the Socks, and escape relegation. (Not a clue if this makes sense name wise). That would cause huge uproar.
This is basically the same thing, especially if you'd have a favorable match-up vs the one you're conceding to.
I get the whole split of prizes agreements in prerelease finals etc, however, that doesn't shut anyone out. This does, and thus should be seen as USC IMHO.
However, this does happen in pro sports, especially in the NFL. If a team knows that they have no chance to make the playoffs, they will intentional throw games to give themselves a better draft spot
As much as I would never concede in a situation like that, as there is a legitimate reason why it isn't prohibited (there is no rule against it and even if there was it would be impossible to enforce), it is part of the game and I accepted that when I started playing. So it happens and I am ok with that. Getting all up in arms about it is a waste of time and energy. So I move on with life.
As far as my personal opinion goes, it is fine to ask. It is even fine to expect. But to think less of anyone and treat them worse when they don't do it, well that's just pathetic and I don't have any respect for those people. But at the end of the day, if it is that much of a big deal for you, then like everything else, maybe this isn't the game for you. I wont treat you any differently because of it though.
I don't feel that it's wrong for his opponent go want to play it out, but in his shoes I'd just scoop and lock top 8 (unless I had a clear and definitive reason not to).
I am sorry but I feel this a really distaseful. Like glowack meantioned, If i was currently set to take 8th and found out someone conceded so the guy they faced got my slot instead I would be pissed.
If the guy really is a pro he should be able to get into the top 8 on his own merrit, not because someone who is locked in, hands it to him. This kind of comments are appalling, and unsportsmenlike.
As bad as that is though think about it like this:
It's Day 2 of a GP 13th or 14th round both players have played all day for the past 2 days a concession that locks both is totally reasonable just for the sake of an hour break! It takes a huge mental toll on a person to do that well at a GP
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 11, 2016, 04:59:39 PM
Did the pros not work hard all day to put themselves in a position to draw/concede?
His opponent also worked hard all weekend and was at 13-0. Trying to sweep a GP which has never been done before is a worthwhile goal.
Which is why later in my comment that he was justified to play it out.
Why does it have to be justified though?
Eric hadn't won enough to make top 8. Simple fact. He felt entitled to a concession because reasons.
The most if ever do is ID - if you want a win, we're playing for it.
If maybe never a concession
This article dried out my hands by just reading it. This guy is pure salt. Although I understand where he is coming from, I don't think that any amount of time played or circles entered should change the outcome of whether or not you hit top 8. The only factors that should decide placement in top 8 are luck, skill and tie breakers. This is not what I would consider an article at all, as it starts out strong but just turns into a slandering of another players name. Which is bullshit, and completely distasteful, egardless of whether or not they were undefeated, there is no reason why somebody should concede to another player to give them a free entry to top 8, at a GP of all places. Being that they were undefeated though, in that position I would play out every match, because I want to sweep a damn GP! That is unprecedented and would bring some serious bragging rights!
Screw this little whiny girl. He just wanted that extra $500.
Quote from: Taysby on March 12, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on March 12, 2016, 02:16:40 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 11, 2016, 04:59:39 PM
Did the pros not work hard all day to put themselves in a position to draw/concede?
His opponent also worked hard all weekend and was at 13-0. Trying to sweep a GP which has never been done before is a worthwhile goal.
Didn't lsv do it?
Correct. He went 16-0 at 2010 Pro Tour San Diego.
Source: http://www.channelfireball.com/author/luis-scott-vargas/
Quote from: rarehuntertay on March 12, 2016, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Taysby on March 12, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on March 12, 2016, 02:16:40 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 11, 2016, 04:59:39 PM
Did the pros not work hard all day to put themselves in a position to draw/concede?
His opponent also worked hard all weekend and was at 13-0. Trying to sweep a GP which has never been done before is a worthwhile goal.
Didn't lsv do it?
Correct. He went 16-0 at 2010 Pro Tour San Diego.
Source: http://www.channelfireball.com/author/luis-scott-vargas/
That was a Pro Tour, not a Grand Prix.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on March 12, 2016, 10:14:41 PM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on March 12, 2016, 10:00:16 PM
Quote from: Taysby on March 12, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on March 12, 2016, 02:16:40 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 11, 2016, 04:59:39 PM
Did the pros not work hard all day to put themselves in a position to draw/concede?
His opponent also worked hard all weekend and was at 13-0. Trying to sweep a GP which has never been done before is a worthwhile goal.
Didn't lsv do it?
Correct. He went 16-0 at 2010 Pro Tour San Diego.
Source: http://www.channelfireball.com/author/luis-scott-vargas/
That was a Pro Tour, not a Grand Prix.
Nmv... I cannot read today
Point is like everyone else said, someone else worked hard to get into top 8 to, why should he get in off a free win vs the other guy who played
Lol have you guys ever played in a competitive tournament? It's a nice thing to do for somebody. E Fro had top breakers out of his point class and got paired up. He should NOT expect a concession BUT he has every right to ask and every right to be upset with his opponents decision there.
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 01:01:59 AM
Lol have you guys ever played in a competitive tournament? It's a nice thing to do for somebody. E Fro had top breakers out of his point class and got paired up. He should NOT expect a concession BUT he has every right to ask and every right to be upset with his opponents decision there.
Yeah, of course he can ASK. Only if he offers something in return does it become against Tourney regs. (Wait, isn't that what he's saying: the bye will earn you "standing" in the pro community).
Yet, in my opinion he is NOT allowed to be upset about a refusal.
It is the same as being upset not having drawn that one card that would have won you the game.
To come back on my earlier thought.
Tournament rules state:
Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be considered Bribery (see section 5.2).
ANY incentive. Even if that incentive is as obscure as "I'll owe you one".
Not a tournament player, but definitely a reasonable adult. EF can ask, simply because it is not against the rules. It is extremely poor gamesmanship for him to be pissed when he doesn't get the answer he wants.
Strategy was mentioned, regarding a mental break. But what about the strategy of keeping out a good player? Dude is basically a whiner and deserved what happened to him as well as any possible backlash.
Quote from: Kaylesh on March 14, 2016, 04:40:45 AM
To come back on my earlier thought.
Tournament rules state:
Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be considered Bribery (see section 5.2).
ANY incentive. Even if that incentive is as obscure as "I'll owe you one".
As long as E Fro doesn't say will you concede to me and I owe you one its not {bribery} if you just ask for a concession it's kosher
Ya lol man I mean I've had opponents concede to me to put me through and I've had opponents dream crush me. Idc either way but it's a nice gesture for them. Sure we come to play magic but in round 13 or 14 of a 2-day event that hour break is huge. And it's totally reasonable for E Fro to expect a concession. But I guess that concept is hard for non-spikes.
Thanks Noble but it's fine lol I get my opinion is the opposite of most ppl here but it doesn't make me wrong and it doesn't make me right either we just have different stances.
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on March 14, 2016, 04:40:45 AM
To come back on my earlier thought.
Tournament rules state:
Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be considered Bribery (see section 5.2).
ANY incentive. Even if that incentive is as obscure as "I'll owe you one".
As long as E Fro doesn't say will you concede to me and I owe you one its not {bribery} if you just ask for a concession it's kosher
The thing is, that's his whole point in the article. It would be good for you to concede because of standing in the pro circuit. In fact he states he'd not play a guy who has conceded before eliminitation rounds.
That's basically saying he'd offer a price split later if someone concedes in Swiss.
Rules-wise it would only be penalized if it happened right there. However, I think his article goes against the spirit of the rule.
And indeed, I'm not a spike, or have much tourney experience. I did notice myself starting to make play errors after 6 hours of prerelease, so I can imagine having a break is nice though.
TLDR: it is ok to ask to agree on draw or bye, however I strongly disagree with the article.
He never offered a prize split though. Rules are as long as you don't offer reward you're good.
And Wizard why doesn't E Fro deserve the top 8 he battled just as hard and had the better breakers so why shouldn't he get the spot? That's only fair isn't it? Lol
Where was he dishonest? Double dealing? Not really its a strategic move on their part. In any game say monopoly if I trade my monopoly for Kayleshs monopoly and you still have no monopolies are you going to complain? sure but Kaylesh and I have done nothing wrong
Lol I guess we should agree to disagree :)
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 03:20:47 PM
He never offered a prize split though. Rules are as long as you don't offer reward you're good.
See in the article where he mentions that it's a good thing to be on the good side of a pro? And it's only fair that people pros like get good things?
There's a $20 bill in my pocket. I'm going to put it on the table and the next person who is nice to me gets it. It's a nice thing to concede.
Do you want to concede to me? No, the $20 isn't a reward for conceding, it's totally unrelated. Jerez.
QuoteAnd Wizard why doesn't E Fro deserve the top 8 he battled just as hard and had the better breakers so why shouldn't he get the spot? That's only fair isn't it? Lol
Except if he didn't get into the top 8, he didn't deserve it, did he?
QuoteWhere was he dishonest?
Would that rant even have existed had he won that match? I'd bet not. And that's being dishonest.
He never offered a prize for concession though.
At that point in time he deserved top 8 going into one of the last rounds with his record and breakers should have been enough to get there. He lost (fair and square) but he still deserved a top 8 spot.
And knowing E Fro, not personally, but through past articles, and even random interviews lol E Fro writes that in his article regardless of a win or loss
If one person gets in someone else doesn't, why is he more entitled than the person who got in because his opponent didn't concede
If you can tell me why the person who got in, instead of fro worked less hard than I'll agree with you.
Nowhere have I said E Fro deserved it more than the guy who made it. I said at that round he did because he had better breakers and was in second. I also said he had the right to ask for a concession but he shouldn't expect it.
Matteo, though I get your point, there is one point I feel I have to make.
Although I mentioned the splitting of prizes, which is my loose translation of his sentence "I wouldn't play someone who conceded to get me in top-8", the rule isn't limited to prizes or cash.
Literally, the tourney rules state ANY reward or incentive is out of line. This includes, in my view, "earning standing with Pro-players".
That's the point I felt was wrong, and is now backed up by the rules.
Quote from: DirtyMustachio on March 14, 2016, 06:38:40 PM
If one person gets in someone else doesn't, why is he more entitled than the person who got in because his opponent didn't concede
If you can tell me why the person who got in, instead of fro worked less hard than I'll agree with you.
Especially with the advantage 3 byes gets you.
Quote from: Kaylesh on March 14, 2016, 07:36:49 PM
Matteo, though I get your point, there is one point I feel I have to make.
Although I mentioned the splitting of prizes, which is my loose translation of his sentence "I wouldn't play someone who conceded to get me in top-8", the rule isn't limited to prizes or cash.
Literally, the tourney rules state ANY reward or incentive is out of line. This includes, in my view, "earning standing with Pro-players".
That's the point I felt was wrong, and is now backed up by the rules.
Fair but it's not like E Fro went to the table and said scoop to me trust me you want to be in good with us pros ;) lol
Also Falcon fair enough but he deserves those byes
Er like the byes discredits the whole fighting the way to the top thing to. Sure you earned them, that's why they're there. Even with the standing of that round, I think it's a disjustice to all the players to assume on a case by case basis, oh you should scoop to me this round because you'll make it anyway and I have the best breakers.
Really when it's like, oh we're all going to be the only ones who make it anyway, that is the only time that it makes sense to me, as a time saver. I don't care who is potentially second in the breakers for that round, obv after that round your not if you lost.
So freaking win or shut up.
I don't have a problem with him asking, what I have a problem with is this connotation of wrongness he feels or anyone defending him feels for him not having got the concession.
Like really!? Okay tell that to the guy who got the 8th spot and worked his butt off if you re-write the story and fro go the 8th space instead, would we be reading a taletell story about how he's sad he didn't get it because someone else made a concession and he got pushed out?
Anyway that's my 2cents
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand things, the whole 'he got paired up' argument is invalid. I was under the impression that every round the pairings are random in each specific score bracket with the only filter being that you haven't already played that person. Only in the final round is it paired in leaderboard order. I am positive that is how it works, but welcome anyone who can prove me wrong and give me a better understanding.
I think it goes by breakers.
Also Dirty this whole thread I've defended E Fro like this: he has every right to ask and every right to be upset but he should have never expected the concession. If he gets it great free hour to relax if he doesn't he should've saddled up and won. Sadly for him he didn't. He over reacted but missing a GP Top 8 gets ppl salty
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 10:26:49 PM
I think it goes by breakers.
Also Dirty this whole thread I've defended E Fro like this: he has every right to ask and every right to be upset but he should have never expected the concession. If he gets it great free hour to relax if he doesn't he should've saddled up and won. Sadly for him he didn't. He over reacted but missing a GP Top 8 gets ppl salty
I feel like he got 3 "free" hours by getting 3 byes at the beginning of the tournament. Sure he "earned" the byes but he still got to come in at an extremely favorable position.
Fair but still it's 2 full days of MTG. It takes its toll
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 11:29:26 PM
Fair but still it's 2 full days of MTG. It takes its toll
Yes, it takes its toll, especially on normal tournament goers without byes... I'd argue less so for the pros who do it every weekend. ;-)
You had a sable army though doesn't count ;) lol
You know... Like working 7 days a week 8 hours a day takes a toll.. Wait I'd rather play magic for money
Well to be fair E Fro didn't make his money in magic he used to be (might still be) a Pro Poker Player I think he has a couple bracelets
If E Fro didnt cry, none of this would have mattered. His crying and singling out his opponent and implying he wouldnt be welcomed so easily to the pro community after this action is what makes E Fro an entitled douche.
Plus look how he dresses, college frat boy FTL
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32592_You-Play-To-Win-The-Game.html
I like this response.
Quote from: griffin131 on March 17, 2016, 05:15:45 PM
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32592_You-Play-To-Win-The-Game.html
I like this response.
its really admirable to see the pros who are realistic rather than entitled.
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 10:26:49 PM
I think it goes by breakers.
Also Dirty this whole thread I've defended E Fro like this: he has every right to ask and every right to be upsetbut he should have never expected the concession. If he gets it great free hour to relax if he doesn't he should've saddled up and won. Sadly for him he didn't. He over reacted but missing a GP Top 8 gets ppl salty
this is not pro player behavior
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on March 19, 2016, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on March 14, 2016, 10:26:49 PM
I think it goes by breakers.
Also Dirty this whole thread I've defended E Fro like this: he has every right to ask and every right to be upsetbut he should have never expected the concession. If he gets it great free hour to relax if he doesn't he should've saddled up and won. Sadly for him he didn't. He over reacted but missing a GP Top 8 gets ppl salty
this is not pro player behavior
Well, I mean, since EFro is a pro and it's his behavior it kind of by definition is.
It shouldn't be, however and it shouldn't be just accepted as a norm.
People need to cut out the entitled bullshit and play the game.