I'm looking for a good synergy with {willbreaker}. Specifically something that fires off every turn. Like "at the beginning of your upkeep ____ does _____ to target creature.
Just thought this...{kiora, the crashing wave}. Other P dubs I'm sure
Any specfic format? Or in general?
{Citadel Siege}, dragons mode. Steal one every combat.
There's {Conjurer's Closet} with {dragonlord atarka} if you really want to go wild..
EDIT: {Ral Zarek} Seems potent too. Steal up to two with +1. And {koth of the hammer}'s ultimate, while not free, is just badass. Tap a mountain to take control of a creature, destroy it if its toughness is 1.
It's not every turn but {descent of dragons}+{willbreaker} is just evil
{Lorthos, the Tidemaker}
Swing, target 8 dudes, don't pay 8 mana, steal 8 dudes.
Dudes.
Quote from: griffin131 on November 26, 2015, 01:09:09 AM
{Lorthos, the Tidemaker}
Swing, target 8 dudes, don't pay 8 mana, steal 8 dudes.
Dudes.
If you don't pay the 8, you don't get the dudes...
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 26, 2015, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on November 26, 2015, 01:09:09 AM
{Lorthos, the Tidemaker}
Swing, target 8 dudes, don't pay 8 mana, steal 8 dudes.
Dudes.
If you don't pay the 8, you don't get the dudes...
Whenever creature becomes the target. You target, then on resolution decide to pay or not. You get the dudes.
If you don't pay the 8, the ability doesn't go off, and you don't get to target. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that it costs 8 more than you thought it did...
"When "this creature" attacks, you may pay 8. If you do...<= key wording here
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 26, 2015, 12:21:55 PM
If you don't pay the 8, the ability doesn't go off, and you don't get to target. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that it costs 8 more than you thought it did...
"When "this creature" attacks, you may pay 8. If you do...<= key wording here
{throwing knife} has the exact same wording, yet the ability and its targets are put on the stack when you attack. The creature is targeted wether you sacrifice or not.
EDIT:
Note that this is not worded: "whenever you attack, if you pay", so the rule of the intervening-if clause does not apply. This one does, however.
603.5. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=603.5.): Some triggered abilities' effects are optional (they contain "may," as in "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may draw a card"). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of whether their controller intends to exercise the ability's option or not. The choice is made when the ability resolves. Likewise, triggered abilities that have an effect "unless" something is true or a player chooses to do something will go on the stack normally; the "unless" part of the ability is dealt with when the ability resolves.
The ability goes on the stack, but unless you pay you can't TARGET. Which is required for willbreaker
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 26, 2015, 01:46:50 PM
The ability goes on the stack, but unless you pay you can't TARGET. Which is required for willbreaker
But you pay when the ability resolves, same mechanic as with the knife. And you choose targets as you put the ability on the stack, not when it resolves (which is when you pay).
I had the issue with knife & WB in duels:origin. When I wanted to file a bug, I noticed it was the proper ruling.
You're missing my point. If you don't pay, you don't target. If you don't target, willbreaker doesn't trigger.
Willbreaker doesn't trigger for lorthos's triggered ability, it triggers when you target.
Now you can word it any way you want but that's what it really boils down to.
Lorthos, the freshmaker
When Lorthos attacks you may pay 8, if you do, tap up to eight target permanents. If you don't, target those creatures anyways but they are only targeted, with no effect.
See? I know you really want it to work, (great idea!) but it makes no sense. None.
I've played magic a long time, and all abilities work like this. Cost. Effect. You pay the cost, you get the effect. Why does this debate sound more like a legal loophole in court than a game mechanic?
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 26, 2015, 02:47:18 PM
I've played magic a long time, and all abilities work like this. Cost. Effect. You pay the cost, you get the effect. Why does this debate sound more like a legal loophole in court than a game mechanic?
That's activated abilities you're talking about.
{8}: tap up to 8 creatures. Activate this ability only when Lorthos is attacking.
Magic's comprehensive rules can be a lot like Law, but it isn't my intention to make you feel like having one. Brokenness is often based on loopholes in the rules, to be honest. I doubt {Balustrade Spy} was designed with the idea of self-milling your entire deck.
Yes, WB triggers when targeting, and that happens when you put an ability on the stack.
However: let's get back to other combos with WB, and let this one be, for the sake of argument.
I like {confusion in the ranks}, though it does need some hexproof or shroud on WB to be effective. (You steal the targeted creature if it's not already yours, when you cast a creature you counter CitR's ability because you control the targeted creature when it resolves. End result: steal all the creatures.)
Maybe I'm just too much of a purist. That's not how I read it on the card. That's clearly not how it's supposed to work. And you should never get an effect that requires some sort of criteria when said criteria has not been fulfilled. That's just common sense. There's nothing in the comprehensive rules that says I can't reach across the table and literally slay my opponent, but we abstain because it's just sort of accepted that you don't do that.
That's not in the CR indeed, for tournaments there is a code of conduct in the tournament regulations though ;)
But I get what you're saying. I too have seen cases where things should work (according to my logic) yet don't.
Don't overestimate the power of this combo though. It requires quite a boatload of mana & WB to sea on the field, under your control, otherwise your stolen creatures return to its former controller. (Unless you overwrite with {goblin auctioneer} eg). And there's things like {homeward path}.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 26, 2015, 01:46:50 PM
The ability goes on the stack, but unless you pay you can't TARGET. Which is required for willbreaker
The ability cannot go on the stack until all instances of "target" are satisfied.
How can all instances of target be satisfied if you opt not to pay the 8. Seriously, wtf people?
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on November 27, 2015, 09:10:39 AM
How can all instances of target be satisfied if you opt not to pay the 8. Seriously, wtf people?
Because it goes in the stack before you pay 8, and it has to have targets before it goes on the stack.
Seriously, that's how the rules work.
114.1d (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=114.1d): A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.
117.12. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=117.12.): Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
Example: You control Standstill, an enchantment that says "When a player casts a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, each of that player's opponents draws three cards." A spell is cast, causing Standstill's ability to trigger. Then an ability is activated that exiles Standstill. When Standstill's ability resolves, you're unable to pay the "sacrifice Standstill" cost. No player will draw cards.
Example: Your opponent has cast Gather Specimens, a spell that says "If a creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, it enters the battlefield under your control instead." You control a face-down Dermoplasm, a creature with morph that says "When Dermoplasm is turned face up, you may put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield face up. If you do, return Dermoplasm to its owner's hand." You turn Dermoplasm face up, and you choose to put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield. Due to Gather Specimens, it enters the battlefield under your opponent's control instead of yours. However, since you chose to pay the cost, Dermoplasm is still returned to its owner's hand.
So, due to 117.12, we know that the cost is paid during resolution. Due to 114.1d we know that targeting is done as it goes on the stack.
Targets are chosen prior to the optional {8} cost.
Quote from: Noblellama on November 27, 2015, 01:03:47 PM
Courtesy of Kaleo
"Whenever a trigger says "may", you don't decide if youre doing it or not till resolution. However if it says "target" you have to choose a target when you first put the ability on the stack. So choose a target and then when resolution comes around you choose not to do the thing but you already gained control of the thing since you did target it."
That's the way. Compliments on the wording.
It could even be an ability says "... Target creature an opponent controls". In that case, the ability would be countered, yet you still get to keep the creature.