*moves debate from lands thread to here*(inspired by taysby)
Easy-button central... Its the colour you give to your little brother so he can keep up with the rest of the table...
Quote from: bravado883 on September 02, 2015, 06:03:01 PM
Sigh, damn. We can delete the thread I made.
In response about the old joke that Island is the most powerful card:
Exactly--it's an OLD joke. Creature power levels have been creeping up over several years, and the power of spells has (with some exceptions) been decreasing over the years. And again, while playing against blue decks is "unfun" for you, you can't really speak for the Magic community as a whole. I never minded playing against control decks before I started playing with them, and I don't mind the mirror matches now. Most of the mono-red players in my meta LOVE playing my control deck, haha. It certainly doesn't bother me that some people don't like control (I mean, the only joke in the South Park MtG episode that pretty much only MtG players would get was how control players suck, so there you go), but the blanket general statement that "blue players only play to win and are arrogant, etc. etc." is patently untrue.
It sort of seems like you want Magic to just be a bunch of green and red creatures running into each other? Counter magic and removal are unfair/oppressive? What about life gain? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm not being facetious, I really want to know your stance. I mean, it would be nice if we could all just resolve our favorite card types all the time, but then all MtG would be are creatures and combat tricks, which would get super old and boring really fast, at least for me.
Woah, woah, woah. Stop that liable right now. Although I have been amping up my critique of blue due to the responses it's been getting, And I love angering people with the truth, I never said only blue players play to win. I you really want it spelled out, I said oppresive strategies are cheap and boring. Most oppressive strategies are blue. Correlation is not causation. Are there oppressive strategies out there that aren't blue? Of course there is. It's magic. But blue puts it a little more in reach and helps keep it in place.
Therefore, it's not ALL blue mages that are a-holes. It's more to do with the player than the colour. But blue is an enabler. It's like the heroin dealer saying, hey, I didn't put that syringe in his arm, not my fault. But the heroin dealer, like blue oppression, made it possible in the first place.
So if you're a blue junky, thank wizards of the coast for creating and supporting a play style that leads to misery for everyone around you. Of course players are going to play degenerately if they're allowed. And then justify their actions by saying it's allowed. And they're right. It totally is. But as a respectable gentleman would say, "bad form, ol chap"
First off a disclaimer,
Im not trying to offend anyone and if you're trying to offend me or are offended, you shouldn't be in this thread. If you want to discuss this with me, listen to what I have to say. If you're going to call me out, back it up. Restating your opinion won't go anywhere with me. Here we go.
First off, I play for fun. My kind of fun might not be your kind. My fun is watching a deck I built work. When it works as I'd hoped, I usually win. I don't like walk overs and I don't like stolen wins.
This is why I hate hate cards. I don't like it when my deck doesn't work because you drew X and paid Y.
{Blood Moon}
However I'm not stupid. I know {Leyline of Sanctity} keeps burn in check. They have work arounds. But they are viable. When you see {Blood Moon} and have an uncastable {Naturalize} in hand you get all the feel bads.
But this brings me to my first point. Magic is a (generally) well balanced game. Everything has a counter.
{Blood Moon}
{Prismatic Omen}, {Chromatic Lantern}, {Disenchant}. /Basic lands/.
{Vigor Mortis}, {Zombify}
{Relic of Progenitus}, {Leyline of the Void}
If it can be dealt with, it is. If it can't, it's banned. Generally.
{Jace the Mind Sculptor}
{Treasure Cruise}
As such, while we all have our preferences, there are ways to deal with our dislikes. Generally.
But that is why I find beauty in control. It has pretty much all the answers. It adapts. Usually your opponent has a chance. The problem isn't control.
It's people that play against control.
Go to a prerelease or draft. Play blue. Bluff counters. It's amazing how bad people are at playing against it. I have stolen games (I don't really like doing it but I'm playing for prizes and try to teach them after) by just /pretending/ to have counter magic.
Control is, IMO, the most skill based deck type in magic. Not just piloting, but playing against. There have been, and probably still are, overly oppressive versions. But in its purest form it is, to me, one of the best decks in existence to play. (Next to superfriends)
Of course some decks just can't handle control. Adapt or die. Control has to all the time. All decks do. Welcome to magic.
There isn't a single deck that doesn't take skill to pilot. Really the skill level of a deck doesn't mean anything. If money is no object, the person predicting the meta, building the best version of the best deck, piloting it right (with some luck) will win.
Sometimes you have a pet deck, and something irrevocably slays it. It sucks, I've been there. You can adapt. If you can't, you might have to put it down. But you might be able to pick it up again.
Here's another thing about me, I don't like winning with combat phases. {Fog Bank} is nearly my favourite creature. If I'm going to win via combat damage (which, let's be honest, I usually do anyway because it's hard to avoid and backup plans usually work better) I'd rather be rocking an {Ætherling} than a {Polukranos, World Eater}. I don't want a flood of creatures. I don't want big stompies. I want the one that gets the job done.
I made a G/R ramp deck. It's boring. I flood the board and win, or I sit in stalemate and do nothing. Or you know, I lose. I'd much rather be casting {Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver} than {Goblin Rabblemaster}. I like control because it lets me win with cool stuff.
All in all, if you're going to bitch about something so central to magic, go play something else.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 02, 2015, 06:31:17 PM
Quote from: bravado883 on September 02, 2015, 06:03:01 PM
Sigh, damn. We can delete the thread I made.
In response about the old joke that Island is the most powerful card:
Exactly--it's an OLD joke. Creature power levels have been creeping up over several years, and the power of spells has (with some exceptions) been decreasing over the years. And again, while playing against blue decks is "unfun" for you, you can't really speak for the Magic community as a whole. I never minded playing against control decks before I started playing with them, and I don't mind the mirror matches now. Most of the mono-red players in my meta LOVE playing my control deck, haha. It certainly doesn't bother me that some people don't like control (I mean, the only joke in the South Park MtG episode that pretty much only MtG players would get was how control players suck, so there you go), but the blanket general statement that "blue players only play to win and are arrogant, etc. etc." is patently untrue.
It sort of seems like you want Magic to just be a bunch of green and red creatures running into each other? Counter magic and removal are unfair/oppressive? What about life gain? I'm genuinely curious, and I'm not being facetious, I really want to know your stance. I mean, it would be nice if we could all just resolve our favorite card types all the time, but then all MtG would be are creatures and combat tricks, which would get super old and boring really fast, at least for me.
Woah, woah, woah. Stop that liable right now. Although I have been amping up my critique of blue due to the responses it's been getting, And I love angering people with the truth, I never said only blue players play to win. I you really want it spelled out, I said oppresive strategies are cheap and boring. Most oppressive strategies are blue. Correlation is not causation. Are there oppressive strategies out there that aren't blue? Of course there is. It's magic. But blue puts it a little more in reach and helps keep it in place.
Therefore, it's not ALL blue mages that are a-holes. It's more to do with the player than the colour. But blue is an enabler. It's like the heroin dealer saying, hey, I didn't put that syringe in his arm, not my fault. But the heroin dealer, like blue oppression, made it possible in the first place.
So if you're a blue junky, thank wizards of the coast for creating and supporting a play style that leads to misery for everyone around you. Of course players are going to play degenerately if they're allowed. And then justify their actions by saying it's allowed. And they're right. It totally is. But as a respectable gentleman would say, "bad form, ol chap"
I agree with some of this but I'd like to quote you,
"Correlation is not causation."
Don't hate the game, hate the player. Combo is usually boring to play anyway.
Blue absolutely is the best colour and it almost always gets the best toys. Always has been and probably always will be. Doesnt mean its oppressive though. Just means that the blue mage will awlays have fun. My point is, no matter how biased wizards is towards printing better cards in blue, it is far from being a 'cheap' way to win. In fact, if we take it in the literal sense, it is the most expensive way to win. That is all.
Lol guys why do we have two debate threads?
Is there a mod who could merge them?
I guess
Here's my take on this...
I play blue. It's my favorite color in magic, both from a flavor and a mechanics standpoint. I played blue when I played nothing but casual, selecting it because I was(and still am), an RPG nerd who loved the intelligent classes like mages and healers. Then, as I played more competitive formats, I stuck with blue, because it was fun and good. I personally don't like aggro. I once thought it had "no strategy" and it was "too easy" like some of you are saying. I have since learned that it does require thought. So does combo. So does control. The point is, I enjoy my style of play, you can enjoy yours. However, you can't just say "blue is a big staples button" and leave it at that. Every deck has it's weaknesses, and the only reason blue is hated nowadays is that it is a good base color. But how many mono blue deck have you seen that fall under your description. Most splash white. Some splash red or black. Some splash green. I can't see you hating on those colors, even though they are required for blue to function.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 02, 2015, 06:47:03 PM
All in all, if you're going to bitch about something so central to magic, go play something else.
I'm not bitching, merely stating an opinion based on facts. Just like you. I'd rather play this. Why is your answer "go play something else"? that isn't helpful...it solves nothing...
Anyone who thinks a given color is easy is wrong. You have to actually look at the deck, you can't tell enough about a deck by saying 'I play blue' lol I'm so much smarter than you and by cards are by default better. No, you're playing with random 2/2 fliers for four person who's new to magic. You're not thinking any more than your friend who's casting lightning bolt. As a matter of fact he's probably thinking more about which creature to kill than you are which bad 4 drop to play.
Quote from: Taysby on September 02, 2015, 08:27:16 PM
Quote from: Splicer on September 02, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
Quote from: Taysby on September 02, 2015, 06:20:17 PM
Quote from: Splicer on September 02, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
*(inspired by taysby)
?
Your drunk thread debate movement.
Still lost
Found it
Quote from: Taysby on April 07, 2015, 11:13:20 AM
*moves debate from getting drunk thread to here*
Quote from: bravado883 on September 02, 2015, 08:46:44 PM
I legitimately try to make my posts as non-confrontational as I can while still advancing my own position. I don't like fights, but debates are fun :)
Indeed, civil debates are always enjoyable.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 02, 2015, 07:53:08 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 02, 2015, 06:47:03 PM
All in all, if you're going to bitch about something so central to magic, go play something else.
I'm not bitching, merely stating an opinion based on facts. Just like you. I'd rather play this. Why is your answer "go play something else"? that isn't helpful...it solves nothing...
Opinion based on facts is still an opinion. Same goes for my opinion, this is a subjective discussion.
It is helpful. If it's as violently oppressive as you claimed (you've backpedaled a bit but I understand that as your first comments were clearly over exaggerated (or I suck at reading people)) then why play magic? If you can't handle it it's not about to change. You could make your own format, but then is it really magic?
I also like how you take the weakest part of my argument and attack it. It's a very fun technique to leave bait like that.
Again no offence. I have thick skin and don't take things personally, but I'm me.
You guys are all wrong
Colorless is the only way to play with real balls
Okay, let's be honest here, blue is an easy color to manipulate—IF you know what your blue deck is intending to do. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the other colors as much as the next guy, but the fact is, blue is a unique color in the sense that it takes actual thinking to play(not that black control is doesn't need thinking either). But the complexities of cards and interactions in blue is so vast that when you play a blue mage and they beat you, you really don't know how they won until you take a look at their deck. The famous example I can think of was Zendikar-Scars block decks that ran {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}. Yes, the cards was broken and banned, yes it was a ver very powerful card. But it was powerful in the sense that it needed to be operated by a person who knew how to use him, the other cards that one had to use to get to the point that Jave beat you, and the amount of brainpower used by your opponent. A personal favorite example of mine are {Stasis} decks. Those used to kick ass. Why? Because people were aware of the cards that needed to be used to lock down the board({Forsaken City}, Palinchron}, etc.) The deck had so little "stage appeal that you'd get bored after awhile. But when playing, the turns you take before you proceed to beat them aren't in vain. Those turns are threre to be sure you survive. As a blue player myself, I enjoy the complex decisions I have to make in my Teferi EDH deck(Kaylesh, you read the list. You know what I mean). So all in all, before I repeat myself. Blue is a hard color to learn that requires experience and a brilliant mind to even barely operate.
Manaless dredge all the way. Placement of lands wont be a problem then.
The graveyard, on the other hand ......
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on September 03, 2015, 03:52:07 AM
Manaless dredge all the way. Placement of lands wont be a problem then.
The graveyard, on the other hand ......
Are you talking about the old Dredge-atog decks?
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 03, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
No we're trying to correct your views on the cousin you disowned.
These grade A intelligent responses are surely the product of people with strong valid opinions.
Blue taste a little salty today
I don't get you guys, blue mana? , people play anything other than black mana cards???!!!
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 03, 2015, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 03, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
No we're trying to correct your views on the cousin you disowned.
These grade A intelligent responses are surely the product of people with strong valid opinions.
Was a quote from Old School dude lol chill.
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 03, 2015, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 03, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
No we're trying to correct your views on the cousin you disowned.
These grade A intelligent responses are surely the product of people with strong valid opinions.
Was a quote from Old School dude lol chill.
I assumed my sarcasm would not go unnoticed. My apologies.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 04, 2015, 01:02:33 AM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 03, 2015, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 03, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
No we're trying to correct your views on the cousin you disowned.
These grade A intelligent responses are surely the product of people with strong valid opinions.
Was a quote from Old School dude lol chill.
I assumed my sarcasm would not go unnoticed. My apologies.
Lol my bad you seemed angry. Lol
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 04, 2015, 09:11:54 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 04, 2015, 01:02:33 AM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 03, 2015, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 03, 2015, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Codester1991 on September 03, 2015, 10:15:29 AM
Everyone on here like "you my boy blue"
Ya, Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
No we're trying to correct your views on the cousin you disowned.
These grade A intelligent responses are surely the product of people with strong valid opinions.
Was a quote from Old School dude lol chill.
I assumed my sarcasm would not go unnoticed. My apologies.
Lol my bad you seemed angry. Lol
The beauties of text communication.