Idk much about it but I was wondering what y'all thought about it?
Basically Jesse (a multiple GP Top 8er) got a 35 year DCI ban for what he has done in his past. That's not related to mtg. 12 years ago at a frat party he raped a girl and pleaded guilty and served his time.
Idk everything about the case but off the few facts I know it seems weird that the DCI would ban a player for non mtg things that occurred 12 years ago even though he served his punishment
I think the fact his potential opponent tweeted that info was super unprofessional when they were headed for the top8. I feel that guy should receive some backlash for his actions.
No way am I saying that being a rapist is ok, but sabotaging your opponent is just straight up salty.
Quote from: Potticus on July 03, 2015, 04:12:10 PM
Rape is a strong word and also not what he was charged with. He took a plea and avoided a lifetime sentence. Wotc shouldn't have banned him imo. There's a lot to get into on it, but just posting my opinion on it without getting into arguing :P
Sorry that's just what I've heard through the grapevine
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 04:27:55 PM
I think the fact his potential opponent tweeted that info was super unprofessional when they were headed for the top8. I feel that guy should receive some backlash for his actions.
No way am I saying that being a rapist is ok, but sabotaging your opponent is just straight up salty.
If he's already been dealt punishment by the court and served his sentence, then who does WOTC think they are bringing it back up and banning him (essentially) for life? I'm not saying what he did was okay by any means, that's some pretty f*cked up sh💩t. But that's his business, it's done and over with as of 15 years ago. Now this guy can't play professional Magic ever again. Even once it's lifted, I'm pretty sure he won't want to play in a competitive environment ever again due to the ridicule he will recieve.
This entire situation is awful, and it's even worse because WotC hasn't said ANYTHING about it
Quote from: Mattao19 on July 03, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Potticus on July 03, 2015, 04:12:10 PM
Rape is a strong word and also not what he was charged with. He took a plea and avoided a lifetime sentence. Wotc shouldn't have banned him imo. There's a lot to get into on it, but just posting my opinion on it without getting into arguing :P
Sorry that's just what I've heard through the grapevine
He took a plea bargain and didn't go to court, basically he admitted to rape which is what he did, and didn't get charged with exactly that
Not much different than employers not hiring felons. Ban hammer approved imo
Who is wotc to ban on non-magic related things?
I'm not too sure I can agree with this direction, though I haven't read into the facts yet.
Yet, this is a very strong "first sentiment" I have on this one.
https://m.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/35q0yx/in_light_of_recent_discussion_a_post_by_zach_jesse/
This article, though somewhat older, gives me the idea that besides the tweet, no actual threat of misconduct is in order.
I understand in the light of the recent "open the community to women"-articles, that the Dci acts on this to give a statement that women are safe, but I think it is wrong.
(Before you jump me, this is by no means intended to bagatelle the uncomfortable-ness of women at competitive events as described in said articles.)
It is their tournaments and if they do not want someone like that to be a potential role model then it is wotc decision. It is just like going to any place of business.......there is the right to refuse service.
IMO it's a PR move. They don't want Zach winning a PT or something, then having some big time news paper catch drift. Picture the head line:
'Rapist wins prestigious magic: the gathering tournament'
Looks great for the game, right?
Also of note: looks like wotc didn't have much to do with this, Zach was contacted by a lawyer, which probably means hasbro did this, if wotc did it he would be contacted by a DCI employee
Quote from: cltrn81 on July 03, 2015, 05:23:26 PM
It is their tournaments and if they do not want someone like that to be a potential role model then it is wotc decision. It is just like going to any place of business.......there is the right to refuse service.
Thing is that at any given GP there are probably a few ex cons (hell look at Chapins history)
Not to mention minors also play mtg. Forget that paid debt to society crap......do you think the person he raped looks at it like his debt has been paid? That person gets to live with that for their entire life.
Quote from: Mattao19 on July 03, 2015, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: cltrn81 on July 03, 2015, 05:23:26 PM
It is their tournaments and if they do not want someone like that to be a potential role model then it is wotc decision. It is just like going to any place of business.......there is the right to refuse service.
Thing is that at any given GP there are probably a few ex cons (hell look at Chapins history)
True. But magic is a different game then when Chapin won the GP, so he didn't get banned back then, Since then he's been an integral part of the community so they can't ban him. Is it fair? Nope. Is it wotc's best move? Probably
As a felon - it should really be a case by case situation for employers
WOTC also disabled his online account, which if he paid for, they just basically said - we don't like you, your database is done"
That's some premium magical bullshit
And the fact his opponent is the one who displayed his black mark, why doesn't he get any flak
And im a felon due to marihuana. So that's already silly on its own. The laws of society are pretty flawed.
We have no idea what happened in his case also, I would hope he didnt do a drunk rape or partake in a gang bang rape. Serving your sentence is one thing but sometimes people who aren't convicted go overboard with the "he's a criminal he deserves no rights" idea
What gives WotC the right to ban him? Unless I'm missing some facts this is premium bullshit. Yes he did something wrong, but it's not WotC job to enforce the law or decide if he does or doesn't deserve punishment.
If it's about smearing the name how about that WotC isn't giving him a chance and is condemning him for something he did 12 years ago! C'mon now.
Quote from: cltrn81 on July 03, 2015, 05:37:37 PM
Not to mention minors also play mtg. Forget that paid debt to society crap......do you think the person he raped looks at it like his debt has been paid? That person gets to live with that for their entire life.
I agree that rape is just WRONG in a horrible way. My wife was abused by her ex years ago and still suffers the consequences. It's among the most violent of crimes.
However, I think it is not up to The dci to police on things happening outside their "jurisdiction" so to speak. I understand, now that his opponent tweeted about it and the whole thing exploded, he'll have a stigma on him that could (likely will) influence his position and the mood.
(Like if my wife were to meet him at a GP without prior knowledge he would be "just" an opponent. If she did, emotions would most likely have an adverse effect on her play. Even if she'd really want to beat him because of what he did, because that's how my wife would react, and I think how many people would.)
Tuning it down a notch, but along the same lines could I face the winner of the last Pro Tour at a match. Would I know who he was, it would affect my play, I'd be awed.
Another tone down: I found it a bit intimidating to take a seat as my opponent unfurled his judge promo playmat. (I asked and he confirmed he was a lvl 2 judge, did not help).
But my point is, knowing things about your opponent will affect your play.
Yes, in Jesse's case a big one, especially in the light of encouraging women.
However, looking at it from a sportsmanship perspective; his opponent tweeted this information knowing it would explode. Did he do this to throw Jesse off his game?? Because in that case, I find that unsportsmanlike behavior worthy of its own ban. Or would we like to get a pro-environment where such actions become common practice?
All-in-all, I just get a bad vibe from the mood set by all of this, and that's why I say: no ban, even though the severity of what he has done is in no way lessened by that.
Quote from: Potticus on July 03, 2015, 06:46:54 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 06:29:38 PM
What gives WotC the right to ban him? Unless I'm missing some facts this is premium bullshit. Yes he did something wrong, but it's not WotC job to enforce the law or decide if he does or doesn't deserve punishment.
If it's about smearing the name how about that WotC isn't giving him a chance and is condemning him for something he did 12 years ago! C'mon now.
I suppose they have the right to not want a convicted sex offender in their tournaments. They're 100% doing it for the PR. Banning his mtgo account was just odd to me however. They cited the "safety" of the community as a whole. And as a whole, people were fine with it.
Also to say there are children at tournaments and they're not safe because of him is ignorant, he's not a .loving. pedophile he sexually assaulted an 18 year old women when he was 18.
I used to think there was quite some social cohesion in our nice group of people who play magic. Even in big events. In such a way that people can feel safe, even if with convicted offenders.
Today I am saddened to hear, things are not actually changing for the better after 2012, as was foretold.... I see more bigotry, more manipulation, sometimes even in the guise of progress. It saddens me.
(Sorry if this seems off topic, but it's just the mood this gets me in tonight)
The Internet is the place where one action is exaggerated at least 10 fold
Honestly if the guy had not tweeted about it how many people would have known? I find it down right rude of the opponent. I don't think its my place to say if he should get banned or not. But i do beleive punishing someone. But i do think his opponent should be in trouble because that is unsportmenlike.
How is it ignorant to not want children around convicted rapists? Maybe he can watch your kids and play magic with them if you think my comment is ignorant.
I think you kind of have to assume the worse when dealing with someone convicted of rape. Even if he was 18 and she was 18 when it happend. I would just assume he is still a creep that would take advantage of a girl around that age.
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
This. And why delete his Mtgo account? He can't do anything significant through the online game that could hurt the other player.
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
This. And why delete his Mtgo account? He can't do anything significant through the online game that could hurt the other player.
Have you ever seen to catch a predator
Quote from: Rass on July 03, 2015, 10:36:18 PM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
This. And why delete his Mtgo account? He can't do anything significant through the online game that could hurt the other player.
Have you ever seen to catch a predator
Was that a serious comment? Obviously the internet exists and he could use it in that way. But Mtgo in no way facilitates that.
Its not like he is a pedophile. It was two drunk 18 yearolds. He pled guilty cause he new what he did was wrong. Well i am not on either side of the ban. Deleting his mtgp account is IMO wrong as they basicly took property from him, albeit digitally. (I know usage terms/conditions make it legal, what what is legal is not always right)
Easy fix. Don't rape someone and you won't be I this situation.
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Rass on July 03, 2015, 10:36:18 PM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
This. And why delete his Mtgo account? He can't do anything significant through the online game that could hurt the other player.
Have you ever seen to catch a predator
Was that a serious comment? Obviously the internet exists and he could use it in that way. But Mtgo in no way facilitates that.
Yes it was. Mtgo can be used to do that. And they choose not to be a device for someone who may use it that way.
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:51:37 PM
Quote from: Rass on July 03, 2015, 10:36:18 PM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 03, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
So magic should have background checks at GPs?
This. And why delete his Mtgo account? He can't do anything significant through the online game that could hurt the other player.
Have you ever seen to catch a predator
Was that a serious comment? Obviously the internet exists and he could use it in that way. But Mtgo in no way facilitates that.
Yes it was. Mtgo can be used to do that. And they choose not to be a device for someone who may use it that way.
MTGO has chat right?
So there is possibility, agreed.
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 08:57:33 AM
Easy fix. Don't rape someone and you won't be I this situation.
While don't rape is a good thing to go by, it still is a slippery slope.
What's next? Ban asscracks?
As I said before and keep saying, stick to mtg.
For me, all this sorta commotion is driving me further and further from competitive magic in general. I was considering judging once I would get the time. Now, I'm doubting I wanna be part of that scene, just like I wouldn't be an amateur soccer ref, due to abuse on that field.
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
I wasn't sure if you were trolling before but now I'm sure. If he has access to the internet then he has access to do bad things with it. But mtgo doesn't provide him more opportunities, just the same opportunities. And his victims identity is irrelevant. If if it was a close family member of mine, sure I'd never want to personally play against him but I wouldn't want him to never play anyone else ever again.
Gonna post Sam Blacks response to this since I agree with most of what he wrote.
https://www.facebook.com/samuelhblack/posts/741423499737
And then he wrote a reply the next day to some of the comments he received.
https://m.facebook.com/samuelhblack/posts/741486024437
Quote from: GlowackAttack on July 04, 2015, 11:36:43 AM
Well how many other rapists, murderers, thieves, etc currently play magic. I understand from a PR standpoint why they wouldn't want him top 8ing... but does this mean from now on they're doing background checks?
Likely only if someone opens the can of worms like his opponent did.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on July 04, 2015, 11:46:43 AM
True, but does that mean that mudslinging may become a new way to win in competitive magic? While this instance is most likely gonna keep a lot of people who have skeletons in their closets frim playing... its still a major bummer that this guy was called out on it and excluded as a result
{witch hunt}
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
He's making a point about the fact that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Apparently they were both drunk. If the court saw fit wouldn't he still be in jail? This happened 12 years ago. You'd think if he was a repeat offender we'd know by now. Banning him from MTGO is .loving. stupid. Nobody has any faith in that he may have changed.
If he raped one of my family members I'd have zero problems with him playing magic. Because that has nothing to do with magic. I'd be pissed if his ass wasn't in jail. But If he was repentant I'd be fine with playing magic with him. If he's moved on I'm not going to be an ass, I'll move on too.
It disgusts me how everyone is discarding a man for something he did long ago, dealt with and hasn't done again.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 04, 2015, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
He's making a point about the fact that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Apparently they were both drunk. If the court saw fit wouldn't he still be in jail? This happened 12 years ago. You'd think if he was a repeat offender we'd know by now. Banning him from MTGO is .loving. stupid. Nobody has any faith in that he may have changed.
If he raped one of my family members I'd have zero problems with him playing magic. Because that has nothing to do with magic. I'd be pissed if his ass wasn't in jail. But If he was repentant I'd be fine with playing magic with him. If he's moved on I'm not going to be an ass, I'll move on too.
It disgusts me how everyone is discarding a man for something he did long ago, dealt with and hasn't done again.
I just +1'd muggy you bastard, I can't be handing these things out willy-nilly.
One thing that I'm confused with the discussion on this topic (in all social media discussion) is that people think that because I felt the banning was inappropriate, I am ok with rape.
Some of the logic on the Internet...
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 04, 2015, 02:42:11 PM
One thing that I'm confused with the discussion on this topic (in all social media discussion) is that people think that because I felt the banning was inappropriate, I am ok with rape.
Some of the logic on the Internet...
The whole thing that gets me is that being banned from Magic isn't supposed to be a punishment for rape. Like c'mon.
Wiz should just have a policy: "being a convicted rapist, you may participate at a GP until you qualify for a cash prize. Once qualified for cash prizing, you will be banned"
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 04, 2015, 04:03:22 PM
Wiz should just have a policy: "being a convicted rapist, you may participate at a GP until you qualify for a cash prize. Once qualified for cash prizing, you will be banned"
And wasn't his charge reduced to less than rape? So even if the United States government doesn't think you need to be registered as a sex offender, wotc is so high and mighty they get to overrule that. Pathetic.
Quote from: particle on July 04, 2015, 04:10:06 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 04, 2015, 04:03:22 PM
Wiz should just have a policy: "being a convicted rapist, you may participate at a GP until you qualify for a cash prize. Once qualified for cash prizing, you will be banned"
And wasn't his charge reduced to less than rape? So even if the United States government doesn't think you need to be registered as a sex offender, wotc is so high and mighty they get to overrule that. Pathetic.
This.
While i completely disagree with the ban, WOTC does, in fact, have every right to do what they did. It is like you hosting a game at your house. You can exclude anyone you want, at any time, for any reason, without even having to give a reason. Competitive magic is Wizards' house, and they are exercising their right to invite or disinvite whoever they want. At least they are giving a reason, and judging from their reason, it is not a punishment, it is a business decision. And while I disagree wholeheartedly with the ban, I do believe it is their business' best interest so I can't see it being overturned anytime soon.
As far as his opponent is concerned, I dont think he will get in trouble, but I sure he is gonna lose all respect from nearly every member of the magic community as a result of this. And rightly so.
I don't think anyone is arguing that wotc can't do it. It's their game and only who they like plays. This is more of a moral argument.
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
Erm, Rass, I think I was not entirely clear.
What I meant to say was, that Wizards banned someone because him being present would have an adverse effect on the tournament experience of others. That's the slope I meant.
I just thought of something else mentioned recently and that was appearance and odor.
So, to better the ambiance for the women we want to get to play competitions, we are gonna ban those smelly geeks...
(No offense ladies, I can't seem to get this worded properly without enlarging)
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 05, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
I can't see how body odour is comparable to rape as a slippery slope? Amateur events I don't have a problem with as there are scumbags in all games/sports though this is a game with impressionable children as well and rapists, child molesters and other sex criminals I would not like my son to be associated with. Yes he has done his time but crimes like that you will be punished for life, you have no excuse for that. The plea bargin is basically admitting it, if you were innocent no way would you go down that route. It is a moral argument but one that is justified, sex offenders are not people but degenerates that society can do without
I agree my example is extreme, and I'm not comparing the two. The only thing they have in common is the fact they can influence play, and in that case it's the know leg of the fact someone is rapist that is compared to the odor.
I say again: NOT the rape itself. Sentences for that should be higher as is due to the destructive nature of the act. I am NOT and shall NEVER condone rape or child abuse whatsoever. If there is a convicted child molester I would not want him around my daughters without my supervision, even if he paid his debt to society and did his psych-ward time.
As such, I can understand the reasoning, yet it concerns me. Mind vs heart thing, and that's probably why I can't really explain it.
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 05, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
I can't see how body odour is comparable to rape as a slippery slope? Amateur events I don't have a problem with as there are scumbags in all games/sports though this is a game with impressionable children as well and rapists, child molesters and other sex criminals I would not like my son to be associated with. Yes he has done his time but crimes like that you will be punished for life, you have no excuse for that. The plea bargin is basically admitting it, if you were innocent no way would you go down that route. It is a moral argument but one that is justified, sex offenders are not people but degenerates that society can do without
Just a heads up, many people (claiming innocence) have still taken plea deals. If your case looks unwinable, (wrong place wrong time) or something, your better off taking the plea than getting convicted of a worse crime you didn't commit. Not saying that happened here but it's not true that taking a plea deal is confirming guilt.
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 05, 2015, 12:43:11 PM
If you take a plea bargin you are basically setting yourself up to say yes I done it but to make it easier for everyone and for a lighter sentence I will do a deal. I don't know too much about the American law system and if all states comply with that but it's a bit of a daft law. Glad the UK hasn't adopted that.
I'll just leave this here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolo_contendere
Quote from: particle on July 04, 2015, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
I wasn't sure if you were trolling before but now I'm sure. If he has access to the internet then he has access to do bad things with it. But mtgo doesn't provide him more opportunities, just the same opportunities. And his victims identity is irrelevant. If if it was a close family member of mine, sure I'd never want to personally play against him but I wouldn't want him to never play anyone else ever again.
Gonna post Sam Blacks response to this since I agree with most of what he wrote.
Yep I'm trolling. Mtgo gives him a place with opportunity different then some random website. He can lure people in by giving away cards. Yes there are other website that people can do bad stuff on. Mtgo just doesn't want to be used as a tool. Sorry you couldn't understand that.
Really identity is irreverent? It's easy to say it's ok when it happens to someone else. That's why there is a saying "walk a mile in my shoes".
Quote from: Rass on July 05, 2015, 04:11:19 PM
Quote from: particle on July 04, 2015, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: Rass on July 04, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Sorry Kay I really have to disagree with you. To compare asscrack to rape is really ignorant.
Yes rape can be a slippery slope but to that I say keep your self out of those slippery areas.
To plea bargain a deal really doesn't help me feel bad for him. I have a friend who is a public defendant. Trust me if your plea bargaining they have more then enough to get a conviction. So you plea to get a softer sentence.
I agree it sucks how it came about, but you have to own up to your past.
Let's get a little personal. If he raped your mom, wife, sister, or daughter your still okay with him playing?
I wasn't sure if you were trolling before but now I'm sure. If he has access to the internet then he has access to do bad things with it. But mtgo doesn't provide him more opportunities, just the same opportunities. And his victims identity is irrelevant. If if it was a close family member of mine, sure I'd never want to personally play against him but I wouldn't want him to never play anyone else ever again.
Gonna post Sam Blacks response to this since I agree with most of what he wrote.
Yep I'm trolling. Mtgo gives him a place with opportunity different then some random website. He can lure people in by giving away cards. Yes there are other website that people can do bad stuff on. Mtgo just doesn't want to be used as a tool. Sorry you couldn't understand that.
Really identity is irreverent? It's easy to say it's ok when it happens to someone else. That's why there is a saying "walk a mile in my shoes".
I've been trying to stay out of this poisonous conversation but I feel that it must be pointed out that this guy is NOT accused of being a pedophile or child molester.
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 05, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
I can't see how body odour is comparable to rape as a slippery slope? Amateur events I don't have a problem with as there are scumbags in all games/sports though this is a game with impressionable children as well and rapists, child molesters and other sex criminals I would not like my son to be associated with. Yes he has done his time but crimes like that you will be punished for life, you have no excuse for that. The plea bargin is basically admitting it, if you were innocent no way would you go down that route. It is a moral argument but one that is justified, sex offenders are not people but degenerates that society can do without
That is absolutely brutal. From the sounds of things they were both drunk, things happened, and now you're calling him less than human? What gives you the right? That was twelve years ago and he /isn't a repeat offender/. He took a plea, which means he was willing to admit it.
Have you never ducked up in your lifetime? Are you so perfect that you have the right to just discard people for screwing up once?
The complete lack of compassion I'm seeing in this thread appals me. I will be the first person to call somebody out and demand justice. I have a friend that was raped at a pretty young age. It still impacts them to this day. I know what it does. I know it's disgusting. But I'm willing to forgive.
But can we all agree the term rape is broad?
People are making it out that this guy is some sort of violent child rapist.
Most likely the scenario was drunken sex, that he coerced the victim into, the victim felt violated during/after the act and reported it later. This most likely (I don't have a case report in front of me) was not a violent sexual assault, with a victim covered in bruises and checked into the hospital for several weeks.
A problem with this whole scenario is just the term "rape" itself. It's just a taboo word that means too many actions across different minds.
In some discussions people feel others are insensitive about the topic, personally I feel people are TOO sensitive about the topic.
Then someone who has had victimization in the past stands on a PC soap box and rants the obvious, but since they were a victim in the past, their opinion is now more validated than someone without that history on the table, who also probably has opposite opinion. Internet court is a complete failure for discussion.
Score
Underground Dojo Keyboard Cagefighters: 2
Miscreants: 0
Quote from: adventus on July 06, 2015, 11:31:41 AM
Score
Underground Dojo Keyboard Cagefighters: 2
Miscreants: 0
I would consider the score tied my friend. The udkc stand for anti cheating and if anything at all happened it's that Zach's opponent has cheated by mudslinging to gain advantage.
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 06, 2015, 06:10:42 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 05, 2015, 05:57:30 PM
Quote from: Wizardmook on July 05, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
I can't see how body odour is comparable to rape as a slippery slope? Amateur events I don't have a problem with as there are scumbags in all games/sports though this is a game with impressionable children as well and rapists, child molesters and other sex criminals I would not like my son to be associated with. Yes he has done his time but crimes like that you will be punished for life, you have no excuse for that. The plea bargin is basically admitting it, if you were innocent no way would you go down that route. It is a moral argument but one that is justified, sex offenders are not people but degenerates that society can do without
That is absolutely brutal. From the sounds of things they were both drunk, things happened, and now you're calling him less than human? What gives you the right? That was twelve years ago and he /isn't a repeat offender/. He took a plea, which means he was willing to admit it.
Have you never ducked up in your lifetime? Are you so perfect that you have the right to just discard people for screwing up once?
The complete lack of compassion I'm seeing in this thread appals me. I will be the first person to call somebody out and demand justice. I have a friend that was raped at a pretty young age. It still impacts them to this day. I know what it does. I know it's disgusting. But I'm willing to forgive.
Screwing up is one thing, sexual crimes is another. That's nothing to do with compassion, sex cases aren't a one off usually either. I may of messed up once or twice like forgetting to put the bin out etc but not been involved in a sex crime. If you think that's brutal that's your opinion but scum like this deserve no forgiveness, they conciously did this and have to bear the mark of shame throughout their life. As for your silly plea bargin system it creates more problems than what it solves and diminishes justice.
"Most likely the scenario was drunken sex, that he coerced the victim into, the victim felt violated during/after the act and reported it later. This most likely (I don't have a case report in front of me) was not a violent sexual assault, with a victim covered in bruises and checked into the hospital for several weeks."
I'll just leave that there. Nothing I can say is going to change your mind.
I'm gonna suggest that for the good of the community this thread be locked/deleted/moved out of magic related discussions.
Thanks!
Agreed, this is turning into more about rapist are unforgivable rather than a company abusing its power as a PR move to an up comer in the mtg community, which should really have WOTC introducing a policy for all events: we reserve the right to take away your prize/dci info for any reason at all
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 06, 2015, 03:32:13 PM
we reserve the right to take away your prize/dci info for any reason at all
I thought that was already the case...
What everyone needs to understand are that plea bargains are made to help. In this rape case, like many others, it's her word over his and the court and jury tend to side with the female over anything including things such as children cases, rape, abuse, etc. the woman could be batshit crazy and they still get the court to side with them. In this particular case I'm more than certain that it was his word against hers behind closed doors with no proof of anything actually. But simply because a woman says "rape" the man is automatically accused of one of the worst crimes in our court systems. His attorney most likely told him "You will lose because this happens all the time and you have no defense. Take the plea bargain and it will save you some jail time." Thus, causing him to be hated by society because a female screamed the R word. It happens all the time and it's really a shame. If a man legitimately forces himself on a woman he deserves a spot in hell, but a woman who gives a man consent when she's tipsy then the next morning says "I was drunk you raped me" it's just pathetic. I mean I may be an .rearexit. for saying this but know your limits. If you know you do stupid things while intoxicated control yourself rather than screwing up someone else's life.
Quote from: Codester1991 on July 06, 2015, 11:39:23 PM
What everyone needs to understand are that plea bargains are made to help. In this rape case, like many others, it's her word over his and the court and jury tend to side with the female over anything including things such as children cases, rape, abuse, etc. the woman could be batshit crazy and they still get the court to side with them. In this particular case I'm more than certain that it was his word against hers behind closed doors with no proof of anything actually. But simply because a woman says "rape" the man is automatically accused of one of the worst crimes in our court systems. His attorney most likely told him "You will lose because this happens all the time and you have no defense. Take the plea bargain and it will save you some jail time." Thus, causing him to be hated by society because a female screamed the R word. It happens all the time and it's really a shame. If a man legitimately forces himself on a woman he deserves a spot in hell, but a woman who gives a man consent when she's tipsy then the next morning says "I was drunk you raped me" it's just pathetic. I mean I may be an .rearexit. for saying this but know your limits. If you know you do stupid things while intoxicated control yourself rather than screwing up someone else's life.
How exactly are you more than certain? Do you even know anything about the situation besides the self righteous crap people spray all over social media?
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on July 07, 2015, 05:52:44 AM
Quote from: Codester1991 on July 06, 2015, 11:39:23 PM
What everyone needs to understand are that plea bargains are made to help. In this rape case, like many others, it's her word over his and the court and jury tend to side with the female over anything including things such as children cases, rape, abuse, etc. the woman could be batshit crazy and they still get the court to side with them. In this particular case I'm more than certain that it was his word against hers behind closed doors with no proof of anything actually. But simply because a woman says "rape" the man is automatically accused of one of the worst crimes in our court systems. His attorney most likely told him "You will lose because this happens all the time and you have no defense. Take the plea bargain and it will save you some jail time." Thus, causing him to be hated by society because a female screamed the R word. It happens all the time and it's really a shame. If a man legitimately forces himself on a woman he deserves a spot in hell, but a woman who gives a man consent when she's tipsy then the next morning says "I was drunk you raped me" it's just pathetic. I mean I may be an .rearexit. for saying this but know your limits. If you know you do stupid things while intoxicated control yourself rather than screwing up someone else's life.
How exactly are you more than certain? Do you even know anything about the situation besides the self righteous crap people spray all over social media?
You can only assume since he didn't get jail time. (As far as I'm aware)
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on July 07, 2015, 05:52:44 AM
Quote from: Codester1991 on July 06, 2015, 11:39:23 PM
What everyone needs to understand are that plea bargains are made to help. In this rape case, like many others, it's her word over his and the court and jury tend to side with the female over anything including things such as children cases, rape, abuse, etc. the woman could be batshit crazy and they still get the court to side with them. In this particular case I'm more than certain that it was his word against hers behind closed doors with no proof of anything actually. But simply because a woman says "rape" the man is automatically accused of one of the worst crimes in our court systems. His attorney most likely told him "You will lose because this happens all the time and you have no defense. Take the plea bargain and it will save you some jail time." Thus, causing him to be hated by society because a female screamed the R word. It happens all the time and it's really a shame. If a man legitimately forces himself on a woman he deserves a spot in hell, but a woman who gives a man consent when she's tipsy then the next morning says "I was drunk you raped me" it's just pathetic. I mean I may be an .rearexit. for saying this but know your limits. If you know you do stupid things while intoxicated control yourself rather than screwing up someone else's life.
How exactly are you more than certain? Do you even know anything about the situation besides the self righteous crap people spray all over social media?
I Read the original article from his home town that he posted himself a few days ago that explains the situation. Both parties agree alcohol was the main reason any of this occurred(as I said if you can't control don't consume.)
I keep running out of +1's for you at the moment.
Well said.
Quote from: Noblellama on July 07, 2015, 10:18:52 AM
Quote from: Codester1991 on July 06, 2015, 11:39:23 PM
...If a man legitimately forces himself on a woman he deserves a spot in hell, but a woman who gives a man consent when she's tipsy then the next morning says "I was drunk you raped me" ...... know your limits. If you know you do stupid things while intoxicated control yourself...
I cannot express how much I agree with this statement, really
Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to get drunk and know you are prone to being frisky and don't want to end up in this sort of situation then take a friend who can keep an eye on you. Don't blame the other person if your choices lead you to places you didn't mean to go because your actions told a different story than "normal" morals the day before or your words the next day...
This applies to both genders
As a happily married man, I know that if I go drinking I may be at less than my best for judgment, so if I go drinking I take a friend I trust who knows im married, that way if I drink more than I should have and end up in a situation that, were I sober and capable of thinking, I would regret, he doubles as my cock blocker, he would bail me out. I do the same for him. Have a friend that you check up with each other every few minutes to ensure you don't end up doing something drunk during the party that you didn't plan to do sober before the party...
"Got a friend who doubles as a cock blocker."
Best thing I've read all year.
And what do llamas drink?
Man this thread just keeps going
Quote from: cltrn81 on July 07, 2015, 09:29:09 PM
Man this thread just keeps going
I feel bad for starting it lol
I don't think it's wrong for discussion to happen on a forum, rape is just tabooz
I vote this thread just gets shut off. Sure it had started off about magic but then it turned into a crusade either for or against rape. I myself admit into being apart of it.
Anyways, all in favor of shutting down this thread for the sake of all the users say "I"
If not then whatever. I just dont want to see any good people banned over personal beliefs.
Who the hell is for rape
That's a fing ignorant statement
Correct me if I'm wrong, but who in this thread has stated they are "For rape"?
Lying is more likely to cause a ban rather than what is considered social taboo of discussion.
Now it's unfortunate that this discussion (and most discussions around this topic) have devolved into rapists are the scum on the earth & if you don't feel he Jesse should rot in hell, then you should join him.
I feel like {{mattao19}} wasn't trying to get a case of "should rapists be allowed to play magic" but rather to discuss wizards practice of PR work. Which I felt they did a horrible job of cleaning up the scenario.
I really wish the culprit of the tweet would receive their own penalty for basically doing a very salty move, as he most likely was not threatened by Jesse's past.
Unfortunately for Jesse: now his history is even more apparent to the community as a whole.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on July 08, 2015, 01:46:02 AM
Who the hell is for rape
That's a fing ignorant statement
Correct me if I'm wrong, but who in this thread has stated they are "For rape"?
Lying is more likely to cause a ban rather than what is considered social taboo of discussion.
Now it's unfortunate that this discussion (and most discussions around this topic) have devolved into rapists are the scum on the earth & if you don't feel he Jesse should rot in hell, then you should join him.
I feel like {{mattao19}} wasn't trying to get a case of "should rapists be allowed to play magic" but rather to discuss wizards practice of PR work. Which I felt they did a horrible job of cleaning up the scenario.
I really wish the culprit of the tweet would receive their own penalty for basically doing a very salty move, as he most likely was not threatened by Jesse's past.
Unfortunately for Jesse: now his history is even more apparent to the community as a whole.
Totally worded that wrong my bad, but it's a crusade on morals rather than public relations business wise. People are getting too personal with their own feelings rather than looking at it from a logical/business standpoint.
Agreed Code.
If this would have been about theft the debate would have been a lot cleaner I think.
I've said my say quite enough and defended myself quite enough in this thread, so I'll leave it there.