https://archive.is/0XaZO
I'll leave this here :)
Really great article! I don't see this happening in my old game store, in fact I see women playing there all the time that are treated equally. But, it is a nice article nonetheless.
I agree with you but a lot of ppl take offense to it!
I feel like women have every equal right as men and I've yet to experience anything to change that opinion!
Quote from: Mattao19 on June 26, 2015, 12:37:53 AM
I agree with you but a lot of ppl take offense to it!
I feel like women have every equal right as men and I've yet to experience anything to change that opinion!
Alright, here's a small run-down on why people are 'taking offense' to Jim's article (and rightfully so).
Only four days before Jim posted his article, a woman named Meghan Wolff, who is a well known Podcast host for Magic: The Amateuring, posted an article to StarCity Games on the exact same subject matter. If you haven't read it yet, it's linked in Jim's article and can be found here: https://archive.is/030hD
Meghans article did an AMAZING job at pointing out the problems the Magic community has with welcoming in women to the competitive scene, including the notion that they must have been taught by a boyfriend, safe travel and lodging at major events, and the overall objectification they face just walking in to an LGS. While Meghan did a fantastic job, another overall issue with the relationship between men and women (as a whole) took over: the idea of 'Mansplaining' things. If you don't know that term, it's when a female brings up an idea, then a male decides it'd be easier for the world to comprehend if HE said near the exact same thing. So, Jim Davis, while somewhat good of intention, showed incredible disrespect towards Meghan Wolff by taking her article (some of the subject headers included) and wrote on the same exact subject not even a week later. He even points out very early on that Wolff had written her own article and links to it.
That's the first major thing that Davis did wrong. He attempted to ride the coattails of someone else's work. Not only did he try to ride her wave, he also proceeded to actually try to argue some of the points that Wolff made, which seems entirely counterproductive when the idea is to reinforce what was said in a previous article. On the subject of body image, Davis tries to argue that it's not just women who are judged on their appearances, but men, too. He cites a photo of Gerry Thompson with comments asking about what he did with his hair. Yes, Thompson was judged based on his hair, you can't deny that, on the whole, women are pressured by society to look a certain way. You can cite one instance of a male player being put down for his looks, and you can see millions upon millions of instances of women being put down for not looking the way that society tells her to. Oh, she's too fat, too ugly, too nerdy, too try-hard, etc. The list of negatives just goes on and on and on. The difference between Jerry and, say, my own Girlfriend (who at one point played Magic competitively) is that Jerry's hair doesn't effect people taking him seriously as a player. When a female player sits down across the table from a man, I can almost guarantee you that the first thoughts through the man's head are about her looks and that it's cute that someone would bring their girlfriend to a tournament. Almost no one sits down across from their male opponent and makes their first thoughts about how they look. Women are held accountable for their appearance so much more than men are, and while that's a problem with society as a whole, it's unfair to let it change how we perceive someone's skills in a card game. Yes, I have seen women on the whole 'spectrum' of appearance at tournaments, and I've seen men underestimate these women and get completely stomped. But the first thought needs to not be about their looks and be about the game. There should be no reason for them to be underestimated at all.
Now, the last major thing that Jim Davis did wrong was not actually even attempting to fix the problem at large. Yes, he recognizes the fact that objectification of women exists in a male-dominated world, and yes, he says that it's a bad thing and that it should be fixed. His girlfriend plays competitively so,
of course, by extension Jim knows what she has to put up with. But then his proposed solution is for women to basically ignore all of the negative things in the community. That they should just 'laugh it off' like Nicole does. In no way does this actually fix the problem, but merely hides the symptoms and lets the problem run rampant. He closes with talking about how Wolff's article was written "with the best of intentions", where it was written about the problems women face and from the perspective of a women. He reminds the reader that no, this isn't women's suffrage or civil rights and that no one is being denied a right that is offered to a man. What he doesn't realize is that there is one critical thing missing that men do have in Magic: A safe community with which play a fun game, free of any judgement or objectification and other things that could make it uncomfortable simply because they are female. THAT is the problem at hand, and it's hard to achieve because, as a society, there are issues with viewing women as little more than eye candy. Yes, that is a problem with not just the Magic community, but all communities, but it's something that we can definitely try to stop from happening within our own.
THAT, Mattao, is why there are serious problems with Jim's article.
I was planning on making some responses to that, but after reading thouroughly, you already answered them...so I've got nothing.
I will admit that was a great answer +1! I did not read Meghan's article sadly and didn't know that he practically copied her work.
But I don't get it. Call me blind/oblivious but I've never seen a girl at my LGS ever be discriminated against. I don't want to be insensitive bc I'm all for equality but I just don't see the barriers. But whenever I sit down against my opponent male/female black/white/Asian teen/adult it doesn't mean anything to me. And I guess I just assumed other ppl had similar thoughts to me.
Hell my friend got knocked out by a girl and what did he say? He said "I can't beat Abzan" he didn't say "damn lost to a girl" bc he didn't view the scenario like that bc to us it's Abzan vs sultai or whatever decks not male vs female Asian vs white guy.
Idk I'm sorry that I was hastey in my assessment of Jim's article but I just never saw the barrier to entry to be that great :(
Your lgs is not the magic universe
I read both articles. I wasn't surprised when SCG pulled his article off the site.
To me, it doesn't matter if you are male, female, alien, monkey or whatever... When you sit down across from the table from me, you are my competitor. I play my best. You play your best. We have a good match.
I wish everyone could see it like that.
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 26, 2015, 07:00:24 AM
I read both articles. I wasn't surprised when SCG pulled his article off the site.
To me, it doesn't matter if you are male, female, alien, monkey or whatever... When you sit down across from the table from me, you are my competitor. I play my best. You play your best. We have a good match.
I wish everyone could see it like that.
If only.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on June 26, 2015, 02:44:22 AM
Your lgs is not the magic universe
And I get that but it's not just my LGS I've played in just about every store within 200 miles and in no place have I seen any form of discrimination towards females. Even at the GP. I mean obviously there aren't a lot of female players out there and that's not a good thing I'm not arguing against that what I'm arguing is that what barriers do they have? People judging others is going to happen no matter what demographic you are, and in my experience I've never seen anyone hostile towards a female bc of her sex.
Tbh I'm most definitely wrong bc I read Meghan's article and if female players experience that then something should be done but it just never occurred to me as a problem bc I've never seen ppl treat female players differently :)
Quote from: Mattao19 on June 26, 2015, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on June 26, 2015, 02:44:22 AM
Your lgs is not the magic universe
And I get that but it's not just my LGS I've played in just about every store within 200 miles and in no place have I seen any form of discrimination towards females. Even at the GP. I mean obviously there aren't a lot of female players out there and that's not a good thing I'm not arguing against that what I'm arguing is that what barriers do they have? People judging others is going to happen no matter what demographic you are, and in my experience I've never seen anyone hostile towards a female bc of her sex.
Honestly, I think you're just oblivious towards it when it does happen.
Because it does. Not hostile like "Yur a chik. Get out n00b."
But more subtle. Many people do things like offering to explain a card to a woman when they wouldn't even to a teenager playing.
QuoteTbh I'm most definitely wrong bc I read Meghan's article and if female players experience that then something should be done but it just never occurred to me as a problem bc I've never seen ppl treat female players differently :)
It never occuring to you as a problem is a problem.
Ya I'm realizing that now :( after reading her article.
I guess I never really listened or heard about the stories female players have. I was completely oblivious.
Sorry :(
Does finding said female player attractive actually condescend that player though? I mean, if I sit across a female player I'm not going to treat her differently from any other player because I know to never underestimate anyone. But does the simple thought of "dang she's cute" make me or any other player with the same thoughts wrong? I know myself will never sit across a male player and have those thoughts but that's just my life choice, I'm sure there's homosexual players that have the same thoughts run about about other male players. The question I'm asking is, where exactly is this line that players are crossing and what are the extents of it?
Quote from: Codester1991 on June 26, 2015, 10:54:45 AM
Does finding said female player attractive actually condescend that player though? I mean, if I sit across a female player I'm not going to treat her differently from any other player because I know to never underestimate anyone. But does the simple thought of "dang she's cute" make me or any other player with the same thoughts wrong? I know myself will never sit across a male player and have those thoughts but that's just my life choice, I'm sure there's homosexual players that have the same thoughts run about about other male players. The question I'm asking is, where exactly is this line that players are crossing and what are the extents of it?
I've actually had that happen to me. This teenager was openly gay and told me a couple hours after we met and just casually played some games that he found me attractive. But ya know what, it was probably the most competitive and fun game of magic I've ever had. He would awkwardly make jokes and do hilarious voices when things would happen. He never let up as well as never held a win over me. I am male, but act very feminine a lot of the time because of the way I had been raised. I of all people, having five sisters that I guess I love :p, love the idea of not just equality, but just simple respect to male and female alike. I will say, I find a lot of these articles infuriating because they always tell about "what's wrong with women in X", but never actively try to calmly fix anything. You may ask, "Well people try to fix that." Yeah, I guess, but you always hear about crazy SJW people just making someone's life difficult instead of helping the problem. I have never and will never talk down to anyone because of physical/mental state, race, gender, or anything else because in my eyes, we'll use magic to brig this all in, when I'm facing my opponent whomever it may be. I want to win and/or have a fun time. So I make small talk and joke. Lighten the mood. I hate when people don't feel comfortable around me. It annoys me to no end because I am so chill and laid back.
I think we can all learn just to firstly accept people for who they are and their choices, as well as learn self-respect and have a mutual respect for everyone else. If you do encounter anyone having a rough time at a magic event, go help them out. If they're nervous, go and talk to them like you're their friend. If they're being talked down to nicely ask the person who is doing the talking down to please ease up on the person. Just be a good person when everyone is just trying to have a good time.
I just let the gay boys hit on me and act cute with them so I can do take backsies
I don't get out to my LGS very often because of my job, but there was an instance where I was pretty upset; it involved a cocky player(male) and a female player who had just started playing a few weeks back. The female player had a bunch of great standard(standard FnM) cards, but didn't really know how to play the game. The guy would "help" her out which seemingly made the game go faster. All the while he was snickering about the whole incident.
I mean the guy would've won anyways (experience and deck construction), but seriously, why would you take advantage of the situation, knowing you would probably win. I'm hoping that experience didn't chase that lady away...I'm not sure she caught onto what was going on at the time. I know a judge talked with him later about it, but I'm not sure anything was done about it.
Just saddens me that people have to do that, regardless of the gender.
Yeah
In tournaments some people just want to beat their opponent & if the person is new to the game, many try to manipulate the game in their favor.
I mean $25 bro
My LGS has two female employes. They are badassess in their own rights. One of them is hardcore into magic and I've discussed countless combos and decks and overall had a great time. She's a great person that loves her job.
The other isn't as into magic (they're more into LARP I think). My dad and uncle have both had negative experiences with her not being helpful with the buy list and some other stuff. I've had 0 issues. You're supposed to check the buy list online before going in. It even says on the website that if it's busy they won't help people that haven't checked the buy list (as it can take a helluvalot of time). She's been really nice to my mom and me so again, I have zero issues.
Mostly due to this my LGS has no problems with female players. My mother and her friend, both noob females, had an absolute blast at M15 and Khans prerelease.
All this to say I haven't seen any sexism.
But let's talk about sexism. The root of the problem is that people are put into categories and then people consider those not in their category as beneath them. The whole problem stems from thinking of somebody as different than you and then snowballing into placing yourself above them.
So how do you fix it? Well if you listen to SJW you shove your opinion up the ass of everyone then beat them to death with it. One of the worst things I ever read in my life was,
"Friendly reminder that it's okay for LGBTQ people to vent and stereotype about straight/cis people."
No. No it's not okay. It's okay to call the .rearexit. out and say "hey you're being an .rearexit. don't be like that." But it is not okay to stereotype. In the name of equality there are so many SJWs stereotyping and discarding people. The exact thing they're pretending to fight for, equality, is being ignored by them.
"But straight/cis/white males are privileged and LGBTQ/females/people of colour are oppressed so it's okay to..."
Stop. Why are those groups oppressed? Because they've been stereotyped and discriminated against. If your "solution" is to start doing the same to them, what will you accomplish? Nothing.
My dad once told me that the world is a constant pendulum. With good in the middle and bad on both sides. It never settles where it should, just moves back and forth between extremes. Example, feminism.
Back in the day there was a lot of BS happening. Women couldn't vote, job restrictions, gender roles. There's still some of that going on. But the pendulum has swung to this breed of feminatzi extremists that .poo. on everything. I strongly agree with true feminism. But this extremist bullshit isn't helping anyone.
I have come so close to deleting tumblr so many times because of SJW shitposts.
Enough of me bitching. The solution.
In a perfect world, there would be no segregation. No categories. You'd see a person and you'd think "oh look a person" not "look at that white boy" or whatever.
This isn't going to happen. True equality could exist only if nobody was different.
Besides that point, people /are/ different. And it's a beautiful thing. Wether you believe we were created or evolved there are differences between men and women for a reason. There are facts involved. But those do not justify anything.
Being an .rearexit. is being an .rearexit.. There is no justification.
So the solution? Do not think of other's as different from you. Unless you're celebrating those differences or it matters factually (ie medically blah blah.)
It's really simple, people are different. That is a good thing (can't stress that enough). Be happy about that. Nothing else. Don't treat them differently.
(Sidenote: As a "Christian" I think the Tower of Babel is where most of this stems from. Interesting to think about.)
*tears up* ^^ this is beautiful and i appreciate you and this post
I'm not going to quote the whole text. But Link, you're right on it. Lets celebrate our differences instead of judging each other.
(Even though I have another opinion on where it comes from, which is a discussion for another time and sub forum)
Link, I agree with much of what I read. I always say to people that "wish" for world peace, "There never will be world peace because I like the color purple and my mother doesn't." Disagreements cause a ton of tension and people having different thoughts and morals is what makes people either like them or dislike them. I agree with supporting true feminism or anything else that is pure in its morals with just making sense. Extremist BS of any kind just blows me away and I can never understand a person that follows that extremist thought process.
All in all, people are different and that's okay. You like turquoise, I don't. That's okay. I'm impulsive and you're cautious. Ya know what? That is okay. Live with the differences and move on man. Life is too short to debate wether Pluto should still be a planet for hours.
Quote from: Deebiia on June 27, 2015, 01:21:26 PM
Link, I agree with much of what I read. I always say to people that "wish" for world peace, "There never will be world peace because I like the color purple and my mother doesn't." Disagreements cause a ton of tension and people having different thoughts and morals is what makes people either like them or dislike them. I agree with supporting true feminism or anything else that is pure in its morals with just making sense. Extremist BS of any kind just blows me away and I can never understand a person that follows that extremist thought process.
All in all, people are different and that's okay. You like turquoise, I don't. That's okay. I'm impulsive and you're cautious. Ya know what? That is okay. Live with the differences and move on man. Life is too short to debate wether Pluto should still be a planet for hours.
Well, Pluto really isn't due to scientific definition ;)
On the topic of world peace being threatened by differences in opinion however: I like to think that one day people can live in peace with each other despite these differences.
However, I'll not derail the topic too much. Something with respect.