{Opal champion} on the field. Opponent casts {Ixidron}. What happens?
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Quote from: Splicer on June 17, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Right. The important thing is the timing. The champion triggers "when an opp casts a spell". So opponent casts {ixidron}, while it's on the stack before it resolves you can legally trigger your champion. Champion trigger resolves, becomes a creature. Ixidron resolves, flips champion.
Quote from: particle on June 17, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: Splicer on June 17, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Right. The important thing is the timing. The champion triggers "when an opp casts a spell". So opponent casts {ixidron}, while it's on the stack before it resolves you can legally trigger your champion. Champion trigger resolves, becomes a creature. Ixidron resolves, flips champion.
That part I get.
Thing is, what parts of the continues ability granted to the enchantment are gonna be overwritten by morphing?
The triggering if the enchantment creates a continuous effect that changes the permanent type, defines p/t to 3/3 and gives first strike.
Is this overwritten by 2/2 vanilla?
Quote from: Noblellama on June 17, 2015, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 17, 2015, 10:06:29 AM
Quote from: particle on June 17, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: Splicer on June 17, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Right. The important thing is the timing. The champion triggers "when an opp casts a spell". So opponent casts {ixidron}, while it's on the stack before it resolves you can legally trigger your champion. Champion trigger resolves, becomes a creature. Ixidron resolves, flips champion.
That part I get.
Thing is, what parts of the continues ability granted to the enchantment are gonna be overwritten by morphing?
The triggering if the enchantment creates a continuous effect that changes the permanent type, defines p/t to 3/3 and gives first strike.
Is this overwritten by 2/2 vanilla?
It's only a 3/3 with FS if it's face up, cards don't maintain size or ability if they are face down
That's what I'd think, but there is a little discussion going on between the judges/rules nuts in our local FB group. Could you get some CR on that?
Quote from: Noblellama on June 17, 2015, 11:18:02 AM
It's a case of "hidden" knowledge
Your opponent cannot look at your facedown cards, and you are not allowed to move them around in such a manner as to confuse them as to which is which.
So if one face down creature were a 3/3 with FS and another we're a 10/10 trampler, I know which one I'd want to doom blade but if I couldn't find it that would be BS. So a face down card is a 2/2 barring any field mods (all creatures you control get +1/+1 etc)
That being said cards that are face down have no abilities OTHER than morph (which is a special ability that exists/functions only as a means of flipping the card right side up. Most of the time a face down card has no features (name, color, cmc). Manifested cards have an unwritten text granting them the "ability" to flip for their cmc.
That covers most of what I can think of at the moment
A face down commander is still a commander and deals 2 points of commander damage.
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 17, 2015, 10:06:29 AM
Quote from: particle on June 17, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: Splicer on June 17, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Right. The important thing is the timing. The champion triggers "when an opp casts a spell". So opponent casts {ixidron}, while it's on the stack before it resolves you can legally trigger your champion. Champion trigger resolves, becomes a creature. Ixidron resolves, flips champion.
That part I get.
Thing is, what parts of the continues ability granted to the enchantment are gonna be overwritten by morphing?
The triggering if the enchantment creates a continuous effect that changes the permanent type, defines p/t to 3/3 and gives first strike.
Is this overwritten by 2/2 vanilla?
Quick fun fact about {Ixidon} that happened to me the other day. Flipping the creature face-down is not morphing it of any sort. It just flips it face down with no mana cost or abilities. Had my commander flipped and a {Reverence} in the opponents pool.
Quote from: Noblellama on June 18, 2015, 10:48:40 PM
Quote from: Deebiia on June 18, 2015, 10:06:21 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 17, 2015, 10:06:29 AM
Quote from: particle on June 17, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: Splicer on June 17, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
1. Opponent casts {Ixidon}
2. {Opal champion} triggers, becoming a 3/3
3. Ixidon triggers, flipping it face down.
Right. The important thing is the timing. The champion triggers "when an opp casts a spell". So opponent casts {ixidron}, while it's on the stack before it resolves you can legally trigger your champion. Champion trigger resolves, becomes a creature. Ixidron resolves, flips champion.
That part I get.
Thing is, what parts of the continues ability granted to the enchantment are gonna be overwritten by morphing?
The triggering if the enchantment creates a continuous effect that changes the permanent type, defines p/t to 3/3 and gives first strike.
Is this overwritten by 2/2 vanilla?
Quick fun fact about {Ixidon} that happened to me the other day. Flipping the creature face-down is not morphing it of any sort. It just flips it face down with no mana cost or abilities. Had my commander flipped and a {Reverence} in the opponents pool.
If your commander had morph (do any legendaries have it besides Akroma?) then you could have flipped back but sounds like you got hosed...
Was a horrid time. Had fun, but Krenko being my commander I was hosed.
Here's what popped out on the other forum:
Opal Champion's ability triggers upon casting of Ixidron, which occurs before it enters the battlefield and triggers its own ability, so it would make sense that both are treated the same. The Opal Champion's triggered ability creates a continuous effect which persists indefinitely. Ixidron changes Opal Champion's status to face-down, making it a 2/2 creature, but does not end the continuous effect. So, in the same way that Ixidor, Reality Sculptor buffs face-down creatures with the continuous effect created by his static ability, so too does the continuous effect from Opal Champion's ability modify the face-down creatures.
So: the continuous effect overwrites the 2/2 vanilla. Opal Champion will be a 3/3 first strike face down.
Kinda counterintuitive isn't it?
Except that's not true.
That's like saying you could still tap a flipped {Dryad Arbor} for mana.
Animate a manland and cast Ixi and you'll have a 2/2 non land creature. It's the same thing.
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
You'd have a bunch of face down 2/2's blanketed by {humility} into 1/1's.
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..
What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?
Quote from: griffin131 on June 19, 2015, 11:36:23 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..
What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?
{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 19, 2015, 11:36:23 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..
What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?
{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.
All face down creatures are 2/2s with no abillities.
No disrespect intended, but I got irked by the two different versions I heard, so I took this to judges chat.
Turns out being face down is applied just after copiable effects, and the triggered ability will function in the appropriate layers, thus changing the 2/2 into a 3/3 first strike knight, just as a giant growth would make a creature 5/5, if the creature was turned face down while giant growth was affecting it.
Now I really want to make an Ixidron/sleeper combo deck...
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 19, 2015, 11:36:23 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on June 19, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 09:35:26 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 19, 2015, 09:24:29 AM
What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?
All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play
Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..
What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?
{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.
It's not independent from the card - it can't be.
Independent from the card would mean even if the card is gone - we know that's not true.
Anyone saying it works over Ixidron is just wrong - there's no rules showing it's true.
It's a single trigger that changes the card into a creature. What you're saying is that if I give it a -1/-1 counter, it's still a 3/3 because reasons.
Why would {ixidron} still be flipping things if humility is on the field?
Quote from: Noblellama on June 19, 2015, 05:56:34 PM
ok, Kaleo says that this is how it goes down.
{Opal Champion} is an enchantment, {Humility} on field, Opponent casts {Ixidron}
Opal champion says when opponent casts, so he turns into a creature before Ixi hits the field
Opal champ is a 3/3 FS until Humility sees him (which is immediately) and says nope, your a 1/1 with nothing)
Ixi enters field and flips the champ as an ETB ability, Champ flips and is a 2/2 until humility reminds him he isn't (which is immediately)
Ixi is now on battlefield and is reduced to a 1/1 by humility.
Kaleo says that there is no way the rules can be correctly interpreted that leaves the Opal Champion as a 3/3 with first strike.
A good article on Humility
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/
Quote from: Noblellama on June 19, 2015, 06:03:56 PM
Quote from: particle on June 19, 2015, 06:02:15 PM
Why would {ixidron} still be flipping things if humility is on the field?
im guessing because it says "as it enters" which means humility hasn't effected it yet?
Im wondering if I heard him right, ill get some clarification on that part :)
Found this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/478467-humility-and-ixidron
So far this is correct.
The key is in the wording. "As ~ enters the battlefield" is not the same as "When ~ enters the battlefield"
"As ~ enters the battlefield" will still work, as it is not triggered, static or activated.
What blows my mind is how {magus of the moon} and {painter's servant} still work with humility...
Quote from: rarehuntertay on June 19, 2015, 06:28:18 PM
The key is in the wording. "As ~ enters the battlefield" is not the same as "When ~ enters the battlefield"
"As ~ enters the battlefield" will still work, as it is not triggered, static or activated.
What blows my mind is how {magus of the moon} and {painter's servant} still work with humility...
Gonna leave this here: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/
Errm, somehow {humility} came into this set-up. I agree with Kaleo that with Humi on the field, champion becomes a 1/1.
Could you ask Kaleo what would happen without humility? Because that was the original question.
Humility came in as a comparative, as it does the same thing, change around power/toughness and abilities after copiable effects.
In the end, a face-down creature is still always a 2/2 with no abilities, name, color, mana cost, or creature types.
As for adding Humility, TimeStamps are what you use. If you have Humility out BEFORE the Champion becomes a creature, the Champion will end up being a 3/3 with First Strike. This is because the time stamp causing it to be tha size with that ability is NEWER than the stamp saying all creatures are 1/1 with no abilities. They are two effects trying to modify the same thing (setting the p/t and granting/losing abilities), so the newest one wins. Same thing happens if you, say, animate a {Gideon Jura} with his 0 ability. If your Champion became a creature and THEN humility hit the board, it would be a 1/1 for the same reason: newer time stamp wins.