{Thought Eater}
{Thought Devourer}
Do these stack? Or applied in time stamp order?
I say time stamp, since they are both trying to modify hand size at the same time...
From the gatherer:
If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you are affected by Cursed Rack (an artifact that sets a player's maximum hand size to four) and then put Thought Devourer onto the battlefield, your maximum hand size would be zero. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be four.
I found this from the Comprehensive Rules:
613.10. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player's maximum hand size, or say that a creature must attack this turn if able. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2e. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).
Quote from: Noblellama on June 01, 2015, 07:54:52 PM
Quote from: particle on June 01, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
From the gatherer:
If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you are affected by Cursed Rack (an artifact that sets a player's maximum hand size to four) and then put Thought Devourer onto the battlefield, your maximum hand size would be zero. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be four.
as stated the Cursed rack has a different effect, it reduces the hand size TO a number, not BY a number, which has a different effect.
But either way the ruling stands. It doesn't state that it would only work if it set the hand size. It says modify the hand size. Both of these modify hand size so this rule applies.
Quote from: Noblellama on June 01, 2015, 10:56:19 PM
I disagree
The ruling is talking about an interaction involving two different effects and time stamping, not two similar effects and stacking
When does it say anything about different effects? All it says is if multiple effects modify hand size use time stamp order. Where does it say that these effects must be different?
Quote from: Noblellama on June 01, 2015, 11:06:10 PM
But it doesn't say that
It refers to a card that says hand size is now X, whereas the other card says max hand size is X-a number, these are different effects which is why time stamp applies in that case.
It is like order of operations, if hand is reduced TO 4 and then subtract 1 it's now max of 3
If it's minus 1 and then reduced to 4 it's still 4
Whereas if it is reduced by 3 and reduced by 4 it's 0
The ruling is the first sentence. When it starts talking about specific cards it is just giving an example. The ruling still holds when it's just:
Quote from: particle on June 01, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
From the gatherer:
If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order.
Are there multiple effects modifying your hand size? Seems like a yes. So apply the rule.
In the end, they do in fact Stack.
If you apply them in timestamp order, here's what happens:
Devourer says "Your Max Hand Size is reduced by 4"
Eater, with a later timestamp says "Your Max Hand Size is reduced by 3"
However, just because there's something else effecting it doesn't mean the older one doesn't apply anymore. If you have both on the board, your hand size will be reduced by 7, which in most cases will make it 0. This is the same as the Cursed Rack ruling, as Cursed Rack would Timestamp like this:
Cursed Rack says "Your MHS is 4."
Devourer says "Reduce it by 4"
Leaving you at 0. If it were opposite,
Devourer says "Reduce it by 4"
Rack says "Set it to 4"
Leaving you at 4.
Basically, the only time you 'ignore' previous timestamps is when it is going to Set the hand size. If it's multiple effects that add or subtract hand size (Eater, Devourer, {Locust Miser}, {Minamo Scrollkeeper}), you'll end up just adding them up to find the change.
Savvy?
It's relevant for {Spellbook} and {Reliquary Tower}.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 01, 2015, 11:41:46 PM
It's relevant for {Spellbook} and {Reliquary Tower}.
If these are in the equation, then effects that "Reduce" or "Increase" Maximum Hand Size are irrelevant, as you can't subtract or add anything if it's unlimited. However, if you had a Tower and then a came in control of a {Null Profusion}, your max hand size would be 2, as Profusion is
setting your maximum hand size, not increasing or decreasing it. That's called Timestamps.
Thanks remillo. I concede.