3 {Tundra}
1 {Karakas}
3 {Scalding Tarn}
2 {Volcanic Island}
1 {Arid Mesa}
2 {Plains}
4 {Flooded Strand}
4 {Island}
1 {Plateau}
21 lands
1 {Vendilion Clique}
2 {Snapcaster Mage}
1 {Venser, Shaper Savant}
4 creatures
4 {Terminus}
1 {Pyroblast}
2 {Ponder}
1 {Dig Through Time}
4 {Swords to Plowshares}
4 {Counterbalance}
3 {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}
4 {Force of Will}
1 {Counterspell}
4 {Brainstorm}
1 {Red Elemental Blast}
4 {Sensei's Divining Top}
2 {Entreat the Angels}
35 other spells
Sideboard
1 {Pithing Needle}
1 {Keranos, God of Storms}
1 {Council's Judgment}
1 {Containment Priest}
1 {Supreme Verdict}
1 {Helm of Obedience}
2 {Rest in Peace}
1 {Disenchant}
1 {Erase}
1 {Flusterstorm}
1 {Spell Pierce}
1 {Detention Sphere}
2 {Engineered Explosives}
15 sideboard cards
Notes:
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This is my miracles build. There are a couple of things I need opinions on. Firstly, I feel as though 3 vendilion cliques and zero snapcasters is the better configuration, but it leaves the deck a little light on 2 drops for counterbalance triggers. What do all you legacy experts think about that?
And secondly, I plan on putting the 4th force of will in. I just don't know what to take out. I have narrowed it down to daze, counterspell or venser. Thoughts?
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on April 17, 2015, 06:58:37 AM
This is my miracles build. There are a couple of things I need opinions on. Firstly, I feel as though 3 vendilion cliques and zero snapcasters is the better configuration, but it leaves the deck a little light on 2 drops for counterbalance triggers. What do all you legacy experts think about that?
And secondly, I plan on putting the 4th force of will in. I just don't know what to take out. I have narrowed it down to daze, counterspell or venser. Thoughts?
You should not be playing {Daze}, period. You also need a 22nd land if you aren't playing 4 ponder.
If you want to play 3 clique you should cut the snaps and add another {Karakas}.
Yeah I never really liked {daze}, I was more just testing it out until I acquired my 4th FoW. It's only even in the deck ahead of {spell pierce} because of the aforementioned (perceived) lack of two drops. For that reason I don't want to ditch both the daze and the snapcaster mages. Or am I just being over cautious?
Maybe less {red elemental blast} and {pyroblast} main board since you have lots of ones and more {counterspell}s so you can fill up two drop.
I agree on at least 22 land
Yeah I'm really tossing up over the 22nd land. I know it probably should have it, but in testing and playing I have never had land trouble. I guess I need a larger sample size.
I like most of what you've got going here. I'm not sure how much of your choices are influenced by what cards you have available (which is totally understandable) but ideally, you want 4 fow (obv), more fetches (7 seems low, I'd cut the mountain) cut the daze for spell pierce or another counter spell. I love snap so can't blame you for leaving those in. ;-)
If I were to do miracles......granted I don't follow legacy anymore.......but I would do just U/W so I could free up land to add 4 {wasteland}. Then I would be in the more 23-24 land range as well.
Lotso good countermagic and set up those entreats
Quote from: cltrn81 on April 17, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
If I were to do miracles......granted I don't follow legacy anymore.......but I would do just U/W so I could free up land to add 4 {wasteland}. Then I would be in the more 23-24 land range as well.
Lotso good countermagic and set up those entreats
Yeah the red isn't totally mandatory that's also why I don't think it needs a mountain. Basic mountain is good against wasteland, but you're probably stoked if they're wasting your volcs. I don't know his meta but maybe it's full of blue decks that get owned by blast effects...
Yea I get the blast effects are blue hosers but still not sure it is worth the splash when other blue cards get the job done just as effective when it comes to countermagic.
My meta is small, but full of blue decks. The red is also in there for keranos out of the sideboard which probably comes in about one quarter of the time. The basic mountain used to be the 4th tundra but I'm actually waiting on scalding tarn to get reprinted then that is what it will become.
I definitely want a 4th force of will. At this stage it looks like daze is the one to go to make room for it.
Tbh I'd just go 75/75 off of Joe Lossetts list he is the Miracle Man!! Him or Reid Duke :P
Quote from: cltrn81 on April 17, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
If I were to do miracles......granted I don't follow legacy anymore.......but I would do just U/W so I could free up land to add 4 {wasteland}. Then I would be in the more 23-24 land range as well.
Lotso good countermagic and set up those entreats
This deck does not want {Wasteland}, you would much rather have red for blast effects to beat the mirror and other blue decks.
Got rid of the daze for the 4th force of will. Definitely happy to make that change. Just gotta decide what to do about the mana.
I have never really looked at true legacy miracle lists but it seems like a control deck that waits to pop off a well timed entreat. I think wasteland is synonymous with control decks is all I am saying.....could be wrong on this build though :)
Quote from: ConanEdo on April 18, 2015, 11:45:19 AM
Quote from: cltrn81 on April 18, 2015, 08:43:09 AM
I have never really looked at true legacy miracle lists but it seems like a control deck that waits to pop off a well timed entreat. I think wasteland is synonymous with control decks is all I am saying.....could be wrong on this build though :)
Miracles values its land drops very highly. They don't want to screw around trying to deny mana when they can just set up a counterbalance lock.
Also, ignore Taysby >.>
All of this. Missing a land drop to waste your opponent while playing a deck that only wants to get to the long game (giving your opponent enough time to draw more lands anyway) doesn't make any sense. If you want to hate on greedy manabases in Miracles, play {Blood Moon}, {Back to Basics}, or {Ruination}.
Regarding creatures in Miracles, there are three choices maindeck: {Snapcaster Mage}, {Venser, Shaper Savant}, {Vendilion Clique}
You can consider running the following in the sideboard: {Stoneforge Mystic}, {Containment Priest}, {Ethersworn Canonist}, more of the maindeck options
TNN is used mostly as a beatdown, which couldnt oppose the miracles gameplan any more if it tried, or to lock down the board, which top + counterbalance +swords to plowshares/terminus already does a fantastic job of doing. If im running any creatures I would rather them be flash creatures with an etb effect and/or legendary to utilise karakas (since i have a few emrakul players in my playgroup I consider karakas mandatory).
What you guys are saying make a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining ☺
Got rid of the mountain for an extra scalding tarn. Gonna keep it at 21 lands for now, but if it becomes a problem i will add another land, probably a 4th tundra or 4th scalding tarn.
Im pretty happy keeping the snapcaster mages, but im still not quite sold on only 1 vendilion clique.
Happy with the 4/1 split of force of will and counterspell.
I think im in a happy place right now with this deck.
Thank you everyone for your input (even Taysby)!
One last thing Joe Lossetts aka Papa Miracles play 1 fetchland in the SB so that's always an option :P
What I found through my testing while building my miracles deck is that if you do not have a full play set of ponder you should really have 22 lands. Having ponder allows for 21 since you have more card selection. Having 2 ponder is iffy.
On the red splash. I'm playing UW solely for the monetary reason. If I had the funds to get volcs I would be use the splash is very easy and red elemental blast is just insane against every blue deck. It kills Jace, counterbalance, counters the counters, kills delivers (even though some delver lists make it bad) and helps against brainstorm.
I cannot advocate enough for back to basics in the board. It single handedly stops shardless bug, lands, and many other decks, but mostly shardless and helps significantly against 12 post if you can land it early enough. And any help against 12 post is extremely welcome.
3 mana is a lot for a card that also makes it difficult for yourself, plus you couldnt run less than 2, ideally 3. That means i would have to drop 2-3 cards that would dilute the deck. Not something i am really keen on doing. It would do a lot of work against those decks though.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on April 29, 2015, 10:32:47 PM
3 mana is a lot for a card that also makes it difficult for yourself, plus you couldnt run less than 2, ideally 3. That means i would have to drop 2-3 cards that would dilute the deck. Not something i am really keen on doing. It would do a lot of work against those decks though.
It's a pros vs cons situation. Shardless and 12 post are horrid matches, shardless and cascade make things hard on miracles. 12 post is just terribad. Miracles is extremely efficient at playing with basics. It is completely possible to play without ever getting a dual into play. This makes back to basics a possibility without hurting yourself.
How much familiarity do you have with miracles?
I have been building it for the last 18 months. All im currently missing is 2 × tundra. Ive been testing with it off and on for the last year. There is no 12 post in my meta (thank god) and only 1 shardless sultai player.
What i meant to say was i already have the deck trying to go in more directions than i would like, im not going to dilute it further for a 3 drop card that only really gives me +EV in corner cases.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on April 30, 2015, 02:31:50 AM
I have been building it for the last 18 months. All im currently missing is 2 × tundra. Ive been testing with it off and on for the last year. There is no 12 post in my meta (thank god) and only 1 shardless sultai player.
What i meant to say was i already have the deck trying to go in more directions than i would like, im not going to dilute it further for a 3 drop card that only really gives me +EV in corner cases.
Ah okay. If your meta doesn't have much of that then that's understandable. Still something I suggest considering in the sideboard because it's a hoser for anyone greedy. I think it's more effective than blood moon personally.