Thoughts? Deserved game loss? Judge being a douchenozzle?
By the rules, he should have taken the loss because judges aren't allowed to review video in their ruling, so even though the viewer knows that he took only what he could, nobody else would know. The Magic. show summed it up pretty nicely.
Personally, if someone did that to me I would just have them show me and apologize and keep playing, but people that take the game too seriously become real doo-doo heads at tournaments and even FNM.
Well...
He went to turns with the judge, a red shirt at that.
That's for sure
#DTKPROTOUR
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/324o98/ruling_now_official_patrick_chapin_gets_gameloss/
He used {Ajani, mentor of heroes} to dig and didn't reveal the card.
Read up on it. Being the pro tour, I think the judge is totally right to enforce the rules strict like that. The opponent is somewhat unsportsmanlike to call him on it like he did, knowing without a doubt it would lead to a GL being issued. These guys are pros, they know the rules.
On the other hand, Chapin is punished for being sloppy, which is not too pro either.
What we can learn from this; stay focused.
Quote from: Kaylesh on April 13, 2015, 06:11:17 AM
Read up on it. Being the pro tour, I think the judge is totally right to enforce the rules strict like that. The opponent is somewhat unsportsmanlike to call him on it like he did, knowing without a doubt it would lead to a GL being issued. These guys are pros, they know the rules.
On the other hand, Chapin is punished for being sloppy, which is not too pro either.
What we can learn from this; stay focused.
Also keep in mind theres always the chance that it was intentional and Chapin was hoping his opponent wouldnt take notice. But i agree his opponent could have just reminded him to show it insteaded of calling a judge. But i will watch the game later tonight and give an updated opinion on it.
when 50K is on the line, frack being nice when someone violates the game rules. Sorry money is money and they aren't there for fanboys
Too much money on the line to let it slide. Chaplin is my favorite pro but this was handled the way it needed to be.
A win is a win. And when 50k is up for grabs, I'm using everything I can. If my opponent is sloppy, I'm calling him. I'd expect the same to me. I've made a few sloppy mistakes at LGS level, and I was called in it everytime. I learned. I tightened up
Quote from: GlowackAttack on April 13, 2015, 10:33:38 AM
The problem I have is that despite him not revealing the card, he wasn't cheating. I feel like high level magic tournaments are more like lawyer battles where one guy tries to catch the other guy in a slip up.
he violated tournament rules, he probably wont ever make that mistake again
Gotta call myself on my earlier statement. I only read and did not see the footage. Turns out the table judge called him, not the opponent. That opponent did participate in the argument that followed, but I understand that. He violated the rules, put the card in his hand without revealing, hidden information so not correctable -> game loss.
When you play pro, best not make fnm mistakes.
It's definitely a game loss but I feel so bad bc there was no intent he didn't cheat and it was an honest mistake.
Like at that level it's a game loss but it sucks for Chapin :( I'd have thought that the card spotter could help out Chapin or even have the judge ask the booth but apparently they aren't allowed.
Quote from: Mattao19 on April 13, 2015, 11:07:42 AM
It's definitely a game loss but I feel so bad bc there was no intent he didn't cheat and it was an honest mistake.
Like at that level it's a game loss but it sucks for Chapin :( I'd have thought that the card spotter could help out Chapin or even have the judge ask the booth but apparently they aren't allowed.
Yep, that's what the fuss is all about. I saw a lvl 3 judge on reddit say it like this: "it doesn't matter 15000 people saw him pull a legal card. The 1 that matters didn't." Your opponent must be able to verify legal play/game state at all times. He couldn't here. Though I gotta admit it's harsh, but also prevents judges being bought. I mean, 50k on the line, let's offer judge 10.... Not saying it happens, but this way it can't ever.
A few thoughts on this. First, I think it was completely unacceptable and inappropriate for the full conversation with Patrick and the Judge to be broadcast. Once they gave the final ruling the first time, they should have moved the camera away to the commentators. I understand players want an in depth look, but that was a terrible way to do it.
Next, ruling was absolutely right and applied absolutely right. All of the arguments Chapin presented were bad. Not saying he did anything intentionally, just think there was a lot of pressure, he was rushing due to time, and he looked like he had no sleep. But he still committed a games rules violation. Acting like he didn't know what constituted drawing a card seemed so silly. Saying that his opponent knew his other two cards, which may or may not be true, is completely irrelevant. Even if your whole hand was face up before ajani, if the new card made contact without being revealed it was drawn. And going to the camera isn't an option for the millions of other competitive matches happenings around the world so why should the feature match get special treatment. And even if you it could be proven which card he took, he still took an illegal action.
I understand Chapin was just trying to do anything he could to get it to a warning and I don't blame him. I feel bad that the whole conversation was broadcast when basically only the first three minutes should have been.
Edit: and he also played two lands in a turn that game. http://i.imgur.com/8M6wn4e.gifv. Man the ravages of competitive magic.
There was also the round 6 or 7 guy who returned his Scry land back to his hand so he could play it again.
Quote from: Cender on April 13, 2015, 11:31:10 AM
There was also the round 6 or 7 guy who returned his Scry land back to his hand so he could play it again.
Yea but that wasn't Patrick "the innovator" Chapin
Pro tour = people good at card tricks, not just decks and magic :P
Quote from: bravado883 on April 13, 2015, 11:26:22 AM
If you watch the video, the order of the cards never change--after his opponent calls him on it he reveals the card he clearly drew off the Ajani. He makes this argument to the judge but it doesn't fly since the only person who could legally corroborate (since they can't look at the video) is the opponent. I don't disagree with the ruling, but that's what really sucks--everyone, including Chapin's opponent, knew what Chapin drew.
All this talk of Chapin; did anyone see that Stephen Speck got DQ'd early on Day 2 for hiding an optimal 7 card opening hand and presenting 53? WTF?
Even if his opponent said yes I know he drew it off the ajani, he still would have received a game loss. He still "drew a card" when he wasn't legally allowed to. His opponent basically had nothing to do with this situation, except for the potential to ask for a downgrade into a warning.
Quote from: bravado883 on April 13, 2015, 11:39:18 AM
I could be wrong, but I thought there was a rule that lets it be downgraded to a warning if the opponent knew the whole hand and the game state was reparable. Not a judge, I just thought I remembered hearing that somewhere (in the video maybe?). My understanding is that it's a game loss because there's technically no way to know whether he drew a legal card.
There is no way his opponent could let it be downgraded to a warning without a judges approval. They opponent could ask for a downgrade for whatever reason they see fit, like they knew all the cards in chapin's hand, but the judge would still have the final say.
Quote from: bravado883 on April 13, 2015, 12:03:37 PM
I'm not saying the opponent has any say over the ruling. But the rules say, for example, that the judge has the authority to downgrade the penalty to a warning if, say, the card was drawn into an empty hand. At that point, even though he still "illegally drew an extra card," it's very easy to know exactly what card he drew. Assuming the card is a legal target, this isn't as big a deal and the penalty can be downgraded.
That was Chapin's argument--my opponent knows all the other cards in my hand, so the only new one HAS to be the one I drew, which was a legal target, and I should therefore only get a warning.
That was one of his arguments. He also stated he hadn't drawn the card because he had not picked up all the cards together as a hand. This was obviously a semantics argument about cards in hand vs. cards in "hand."
I still respect the innovator a ton and know he's one of the G.O.A.T's, but that doesn't mean he's immune to mistakes and/or should get special treatment just because it was being recorded.
And in terms of the "my opponent should have known the rest of my hand because they were revealed from my {courser of kruphix} earlier" seems flawed imo. This was a long intense game, and to say my opponent had to remember these cards and/or write them down just doesn't make sense. Is it possible my opponent knew my hand, yes. Can I say for sure that they knew? Unlikely.
Quote from: Noblellama on April 13, 2015, 12:53:38 PM
I'm going to be blunt because I have had a crappy morning, Pro players don't get to make amateur mistakes, and if is a question of is it an amateur mistake or intentional cheating and there is money on the line then I'm not sorry, but you don't get oops-es...
That's what we can take away from this one. I agree though. This is highest level magic.
I can't believe nobodys talking about how he played 2 lands in 1 turn in the same game
Looks like it's a very clear message from the judges. If you want to compete at the highest level, alongside the greatest players, you will not be given any slack. Know your game, and know proper procedures.
On that note, someone should do weekly articles on how to compete at the highest level, including etiquette, properly working through procedures and phases, and ensuring that newer players and people starting to compete above LGS level can do so properly and effectively.
Quote from: DrainCleaner on April 13, 2015, 01:30:16 PM
I can't believe nobodys talking about how he played 2 lands in 1 turn in the same game
But he had Courser out in the same game, that's legit right :p
Didn't even know. Guess he was just too tired to play properly. Sloppy judging for not calling that though.
I can't find the patience to watch a stream, I prefer playing to watching. So I gotta go by what ppl here (and reddit to lesser extend) say about it. But since I am interested in judging and rulings, this sort of thing peaks my interest.
People need to realize two things:
1) Just because Patrick Chapin is a beloved and well respected member of the community doesn't mean anything. All that matters is that someone made a play mistake, both with the card not being revealed off of Ajani and the playing of the second land. As judges, we disregard anything we know about the player and just look at the situation at hand. Was an Infraction committed, and what is the proper penalty.
2) This isn't FNM. It's also not Day 1 at a GP or an SCG Open. This is the Pro Tour. This is what is handled at Professional Rules Enforcement Level, where there is absolutely no leeway for sloppy play. If you make a mistake and your opponent calls you on it, that's what happens. Your play at Professional has to be airtight. Money is on the line and there's no room for error.
Long story short: Yes, Chapin's a cool guy, but the penalty given was the correct one. If someone unknown had done that on camera, tons of viewers would have probably been on their throat about it. Just because he's a celebrity doesn't excuse him for sloppy play.
People also believe OJ didn't kill Nicole
Fanboys.
A really good read from Cedric on the topic.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html
{Cedric Phillips} of star city games commentary has posted a poignant, sad, true response to this mess. Here it is:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html
Quote from: particle on April 14, 2015, 12:08:34 PM
{Cedric Phillips} of star city games commentary has posted a poignant, sad, true response to this mess. Here it is:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html
9 second gap.
He still says nothing about the lands
Quote from: Thetrufflehunter on April 14, 2015, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: particle on April 14, 2015, 12:08:34 PM
{Cedric Phillips} of star city games commentary has posted a poignant, sad, true response to this mess. Here it is:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html
9 second gap.
It's my damn wee fee!!
Quote from: Thetrufflehunter on April 14, 2015, 12:08:25 PM
A really good read from Cedric on the topic.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html
Yup. His point about what do people learn when things like this are broadcast is absolutely correct. I've been ramping up my rules knowledge, working on my playing, investing a lot of time... But do I really want to?
Yes, I understand these discussions happen off camera as well, but off camera isn't what's trying to draw people into the tournament game.
And bringing up the 90s as if it was a good thing is ludicrous - I played back then as well. I didn't pursue any kind of tournament at the time because of all the "Wild West" feelings.