Anyone else see that ponder just became one if not the most powerful card in standard? Anyone else speculate that it will make the banned list in most formats if not all but standard and edh?
{Ponder} is decent, but people are forgetting that you're only looking at the top 3 cards of the library.
Ponder is highly overrated. I'm not saying I don't use it, but I found its rarely a game changer, and I'm more apt to shuffle. It's very rarely can you figure your next 2 draws perfectly, and if you can you are more likely in the driver seat.
Additionally, using it to setup miracles requires that they're amazing the moment you need it. While {time walk} is usually a wonderful thing, not being able to cast it (or having your opponent know you're taking another turn) ruins the element of surprise.
I'm going to be a hipster and say I used ponder before it was cool.
Quote from: Dudecore2012 on April 15, 2012, 01:08:36 AM
Ponder is highly overrated. I'm not saying I don't use it, but I found its rarely a game changer, and I'm more apt to shuffle. It's very rarely can you figure your next 2 draws perfectly, and if you can you are more likely in the driver seat.
Additionally, using it to setup miracles requires that they're amazing the moment you need it. While {time walk} is usually a wonderful thing, not being able to cast it (or having your opponent know you're taking another turn) ruins the element of surprise.
Plus if you were going to draw a miracle card next turn all ur going to do is put it second and draw it next turn anyway.
ive never really seen it put to good use in my play group.
Maybe so. Maybe it is overrated. However the logic that its usability in the format is still there, and the setup is still there, I don't really care for cards like it but if I'm going to play blue there isn't many cards that will fit above its priority first with what's legal in standard.
Quote from: ChrisRodriguez on April 15, 2012, 01:52:58 AM
Quote from: Dudecore2012 on April 15, 2012, 01:08:36 AM
Ponder is highly overrated. I'm not saying I don't use it, but I found its rarely a game changer, and I'm more apt to shuffle. It's very rarely can you figure your next 2 draws perfectly, and if you can you are more likely in the driver seat.
Additionally, using it to setup miracles requires that they're amazing the moment you need it. While {time walk} is usually a wonderful thing, not being able to cast it (or having your opponent know you're taking another turn) ruins the element of surprise.
Plus if you were going to draw a miracle card next turn all ur going to do is put it second and draw it next turn anyway.
It seems to have found its way in almost every top tier deck in all formats it's legal in, and is a card that lets you not only draw one, but also choose from three instead of something like {gitaxian probe} where you don't get a choice. "overrated" really? If you haven't seen ponder be affective you may have over-shuffled or aren't using it usefully. And as far as miracles go, what if the miracle is card 3? What if all you need to do to avoid some curse trigger is deal some damage to your opponent before your turn? What if the miracle is not where you want it? If anything ponder is underrated, not in tournament play though where everyone uses it, I've lost/won many games to "top decking" a game changer, usually to deliver, and ponder has usually helped to put that into action. There is a reason {time walk} is restricted, and therefore rarely used, but to take an extra turn has always been one of the most sought after plays in magic. Expect this overrated card to show up in any new deck that finds its way to the top, and expect {ponder} to not be reprinted, for a while.
What is this armature hour? These replies are maddening!!! Ponder is broken! Just drawing a card for one blue is amazing but this allows you to setup the field for the next couple turns or leave it to chance and shuffle. I don't know how y'all play but if I can set up the next 2-3 turns I usually win. This card is BANNED in extended, if it was overrated it would be legal. Not to mention its a common. And throw miracles into the mix and this games gonna get pretty sick pretty fast. I agree {Ponder} will be splashed into all the top decks from now will till it goes out with M12. Keep practicing boys, maybe you'll understand soon.
Quote from: Clearmario on April 15, 2012, 01:10:10 AM
I'm going to be a hipster and say I used ponder before it was cool.
You my friend are awesome.
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 12:41:52 AM
{Ponder} is decent, but people are forgetting that you're only looking at the top 3 cards of the library.
What? Would you rather see the top 12? Or maybe the top 20? You're right this card is terrible, no wonder it's banned in extended! That's why {demonic tutor} sucks, cuz it only let's you find one card! And {Primeval Titan} only let's you get 2 lands? Geez, they should take the game back to the drawing board.
Quote from: Dudecore2012 on April 15, 2012, 01:08:36 AM
Ponder is highly overrated. I'm not saying I don't use it, but I found its rarely a game changer, and I'm more apt to shuffle. It's very rarely can you figure your next 2 draws perfectly, and if you can you are more likely in the driver seat.
Additionally, using it to setup miracles requires that they're amazing the moment you need it. While {time walk} is usually a wonderful thing, not being able to cast it (or having your opponent know you're taking another turn) ruins the element of surprise.
I would delete this I were you.
Quote from: Jake, Fart Sculptor on April 15, 2012, 12:26:33 AM
Anyone else see that ponder just became one if not the most powerful card in standard? Anyone else speculate that it will make the banned list in most formats if not all but standard and edh?
Ponder isnt that good. It's fine as a draw smoothing mechanic, and with miracle you run the risk of snagging one in your opening hand.
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
I concur.
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
Thank you! That's what I was trying to say.
Quote from: SirMychal on April 15, 2012, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 12:41:52 AM
{Ponder} is decent, but people are forgetting that you're only looking at the top 3 cards of the library.
What? Would you rather see the top 12? Or maybe the top 20? You're right this card is terrible, no wonder it's banned in extended! That's why {demonic tutor} sucks, cuz it only let's you find one card! And {Primeval Titan} only let's you get 2 lands? Geez, they should take the game back to the drawing board.
First of all Straw Man Fallacy, and second of all make a deck that runs 4 {Temporal Mastery} and 4 {Ponder}s tell me how many times you got the combo going. Then of those times you got the combo going tell me how many times it was a legitamitely game changer, turn 2 temporal mastery helps but that is your only turn 2 move. If you're playing control, it's about as useful as a {Rampant Growth}.
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
Miracles were just a side note, look at the top decks, ponder is in a vast majority of them and for good reason, the debate wasn't why it's restricted. People were saying it was overrated which is ridiculous. The speed this card provides is amazing. You mention good combos, however control of the game wins tournaments. {Ponder}'s diversity is what also makes it killer, it can fit into any deck by splashing blue. Kiki isnt as versatile.
Some heated debate! I havent seen this much dispute since Appleguru.
I think much of {Ponder}'s popularity of late is its fixing Delver and for control. I agree it's a strong card, but I don't think it's back-breaking in the environment.
Quote from: BlackJester on April 15, 2012, 04:15:02 PM
Some heated debate! I havent seen this much dispute since Appleguru.
I think much of {Ponder}'s popularity of late is its fixing Delver and for control. I agree it's a strong card, but I don't think it's back-breaking in the environment.
What's appleguru?
Quote from: 1337m00nm4n on April 15, 2012, 05:31:40 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on April 15, 2012, 04:15:02 PM
Some heated debate! I havent seen this much dispute since Appleguru.
I think much of {Ponder}'s popularity of late is its fixing Delver and for control. I agree it's a strong card, but I don't think it's back-breaking in the environment.
What's appleguru?
💩
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 05:33:34 PM
Quote from: 1337m00nm4n on April 15, 2012, 05:31:40 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on April 15, 2012, 04:15:02 PM
Some heated debate! I havent seen this much dispute since Appleguru.
I think much of {Ponder}'s popularity of late is its fixing Delver and for control. I agree it's a strong card, but I don't think it's back-breaking in the environment.
What's appleguru?
💩
Wait, I know now!
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php/topic,1645.msg11716.html#msg11716
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php/topic,998.msg6174.html#msg6174
Quote from: Prophylaxis on April 15, 2012, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
I concur.
^This
Quote from: 1337m00nm4n on April 15, 2012, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: Prophylaxis on April 15, 2012, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 11:59:37 AM
{Ponder} isn't banned/restricted in all formats because it is broken. It is banned becuse it sets up combos. You guys are taken ponder to be good for the wrong reasons. We don't have {Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker} with {Deciever Exarch} or {Entomb}, what we have are miracles, which unlike {Reanimate} lose a lot of value when in hand.
TL;DR people confusing Ponder for {Brainstorm}
I concur.
^This
Please do go on and provide a rebuttal.
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: SirMychal on April 15, 2012, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: loop-s-pool on April 15, 2012, 12:41:52 AM
{Ponder} is decent, but people are forgetting that you're only looking at the top 3 cards of the library.
What? Would you rather see the top 12? Or maybe the top 20? You're right this card is terrible, no wonder it's banned in extended! That's why {demonic tutor} sucks, cuz it only let's you find one card! And {Primeval Titan} only let's you get 2 lands? Geez, they should take the game back to the drawing board.
First of all Straw Man Fallacy, and second of all make a deck that runs 4 {Temporal Mastery} and 4 {Ponder}s tell me how many times you got the combo going. Then of those times you got the combo going tell me how many times it was a legitamitely game changer, turn 2 temporal mastery helps but that is your only turn 2 move. If you're playing control, it's about as useful as a {Rampant Growth}.
Thank god your critical thinking course has granted you with the insight to spot such generalizations. However, I think a deck with a playset of both {ponder} and {temporal mastery} might just pull the combo off a time or two, I would not play it, but I would venture to say its likely to pull off the combo. And as it was earlier said, ponder is generally used to "set up" combos. Which, unbeknownst to the user that wrote this apparently, more furthers my argument. Love you guys, keep on playing!
Well besides my the error in the words I choose, my points been made. Ponder is not broken, game changing or otherwise. It's a good 1 mana draw card and can potentially setup something great. I put it in every blue deck, for obvious reasons.
{Time Walk} is broken. You can throw it out on your second main, when an opponent already played defense and catch them off-guard.
{Temporal Mastery} is revealed to begin with, and has to be played when it's drawed. Let's say the board changes between when you {ponder} it and now, you've essentially spent two turns sitting on your hands.
I could see {Surgical Extraction} being In almost everyones sideboard
Quote from: Dudecore2012 on April 15, 2012, 09:26:42 PM
Well besides my the error in the words I choose, my points been made. Ponder is not broken, game changing or otherwise. It's a good 1 mana draw card and can potentially setup something great. I put it in every blue deck, for obvious reasons.
{Time Walk} is broken. You can throw it out on your second main, when an opponent already played defense and catch them off-guard.
{Temporal Mastery} is revealed to begin with, and has to be played when it's drawed. Let's say the board changes between when you {ponder} it and now, you've essentially spent two turns sitting on your hands.
I could see {Surgical Extraction} being In almost everyones sideboard
You've hit the nail on the head. I think every tier one or two deck in standard runs at least one surgical extraction.
In addition anti-ponder methods exist.
{Thought Scour}
{Dream Twist} (and has a flashback)
{Nephalia Drownyard}
I am not buying this {temporal mastery} dominance yet until I get a chance to see it.
Your mom uses {Ponder}.