Will the ability of {Lodestone Golem} affect cards with the following abilities;
Miracle
Suspend
Cascade
Flashback
?
suspend is an activated ability. {lodestone golem} will not have an effect on the suspending. when cards come off suspend, you can cast them "without paying their mana cost." so cost increases dont matter since your not paying whatever the cost is.
same thing for cascade, your casting without paying mana costs so increases dont matter.
now, flashback and miracle are both alternative costs, so cost increases will affect them.
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
suspend is an activated ability. {lodestone golem} will not have an effect on the suspending. when cards come off suspend, you can cast them "without paying their mana cost." so cost increases dont matter since your not paying whatever the cost is.
same thing for cascade, your casting without paying mana costs so increases dont matter.
now, flashback and miracle are both alternative costs, so cost increases will affect them.
First two points are wrong. Both Suspend and Cascade create an Alternative cost of "Not paying its mana cost". This just changes the base cost that you would pay, before taxes are added and reductions taken off, then Trinisphere. You'll pay 0, then Lodestone will add 1.
Quote from: Remillo on November 13, 2014, 10:11:17 PM
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
suspend is an activated ability. {lodestone golem} will not have an effect on the suspending. when cards come off suspend, you can cast them "without paying their mana cost." so cost increases dont matter since your not paying whatever the cost is.
same thing for cascade, your casting without paying mana costs so increases dont matter.
now, flashback and miracle are both alternative costs, so cost increases will affect them.
First two points are wrong. Both Suspend and Cascade create an Alternative cost of "Not paying its mana cost". This just changes the base cost that you would pay, before taxes are added and reductions taken off, then Trinisphere. You'll pay 0, then Lodestone will add 1.
this is the reminder text for cascade:
When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards exiled this way that weren't cast on the bottom of your library in a random order.
"without paying its mana cost." so if i have an {omniscience} and an opponent has a {trinisphere} i have to pay three?
On the costs of casting a spell:
601.2e (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=601.2e): The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
If I read this I'd say the costs are added first and then naught is paid.
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 10:55:19 PM
"without paying its mana cost." so if i have an {omniscience} and an opponent has a {trinisphere} i have to pay three?
This is correct. When determining the cost of a spell or ability, this is the order:
1) Base cost. This is either the mana cost printed, or any other alternative costs that may be payed, such as overload, or 'without paying it's mana cost' from effects like Suspend, Cascade or omniscience.
2) Add any additional costs. This includes effects like multi/kicker and tax effects.
3) Subtract any cost reductions. Things like the medallion cycle, Edgewalker, familiars, etc.
4) If Trinisphere is in play and untapped, appy it if needed.
Quote from: Remillo on November 14, 2014, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 10:55:19 PM
"without paying its mana cost." so if i have an {omniscience} and an opponent has a {trinisphere} i have to pay three?
This is correct. When determining the cost of a spell or ability, this is the order:
1) Base cost. This is either the mana cost printed, or any other alternative costs that may be payed, such as overload, or 'without paying it's mana cost' from effects like Suspend, Cascade or omniscience.
2) Add any additional costs. This includes effects like multi/kicker and tax effects.
3) Subtract any cost reductions. Things like the medallion cycle, Edgewalker, familiars, etc.
4) If Trinisphere is in play and untapped, appy it if needed.
just curious, why isnt step 4 part of step 2?
Apnap
Quote from: particle on November 14, 2014, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: Remillo on November 14, 2014, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 10:55:19 PM
"without paying its mana cost." so if i have an {omniscience} and an opponent has a {trinisphere} i have to pay three?
This is correct. When determining the cost of a spell or ability, this is the order:
1) Base cost. This is either the mana cost printed, or any other alternative costs that may be payed, such as overload, or 'without paying it's mana cost' from effects like Suspend, Cascade or omniscience.
2) Add any additional costs. This includes effects like multi/kicker and tax effects.
3) Subtract any cost reductions. Things like the medallion cycle, Edgewalker, familiars, etc.
4) If Trinisphere is in play and untapped, appy it if needed.
just curious, why isnt step 4 part of step 2?
Because Trinisphere is a special case that applies to the total cost of the spell, not just the base cost. It's the only ability of its kind, so it has its own rules.
From Gatherer:
2004-12-01 - Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.
Quote from: Remillo on November 14, 2014, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: particle on November 14, 2014, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: Remillo on November 14, 2014, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: particle on November 13, 2014, 10:55:19 PM
"without paying its mana cost." so if i have an {omniscience} and an opponent has a {trinisphere} i have to pay three?
This is correct. When determining the cost of a spell or ability, this is the order:
1) Base cost. This is either the mana cost printed, or any other alternative costs that may be payed, such as overload, or 'without paying it's mana cost' from effects like Suspend, Cascade or omniscience.
2) Add any additional costs. This includes effects like multi/kicker and tax effects.
3) Subtract any cost reductions. Things like the medallion cycle, Edgewalker, familiars, etc.
4) If Trinisphere is in play and untapped, appy it if needed.
just curious, why isnt step 4 part of step 2?
Because Trinisphere is a special case that applies to the total cost of the spell, not just the base cost. It's the only ability of its kind, so it has its own rules.
From Gatherer:
2004-12-01 - Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.
arg. i hate when wizards just makes the rules reasoning just "because its special." but thanks jedi master {{remillo}}.
A brief history lesson:
It's text harkens back to old days of magic, where if an artifact was tapped, it was "turned off". Back then, there were there types of artifacts: mono, poly and continuous. If {trinisphere} was printed back then, it would fall under the catagory of "continuous", meaning it's effect is always working. The only way to stop it from working was to tap it. So Wizards didn't break any rules when they made this card, it's just always been there, just that most artifacts like this have been errated out. Now most artifacts still have their "continuous" effects active even while tapped. This card, {howling mine} and a few others are the exceptions.
Quote from: rarehuntertay on November 14, 2014, 09:30:52 PM
A brief history lesson:
It's text harkens back to old days of magic, where if an artifact was tapped, it was "turned off". Back then, there were there types of artifacts: mono, poly and continuous. If {trinisphere} was printed back then, it would fall under the catagory of "continuous", meaning it's effect is always working. The only way to stop it from working was to tap it. So Wizards didn't break any rules when they made this card, it's just always been there, just that most artifacts like this have been errated out. Now most artifacts still have their "continuous" effects active even while tapped. This card, {howling mine} and a few others are the exceptions.
That's true, but it's not really what the focus was here. He just means the fact that Trinisphere's effect is so unique that it requires its own slot in the rules.
Quote from: Remillo on November 14, 2014, 09:49:33 PM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on November 14, 2014, 09:30:52 PM
A brief history lesson:
It's text harkens back to old days of magic, where if an artifact was tapped, it was "turned off". Back then, there were there types of artifacts: mono, poly and continuous. If {trinisphere} was printed back then, it would fall under the catagory of "continuous", meaning it's effect is always working. The only way to stop it from working was to tap it. So Wizards didn't break any rules when they made this card, it's just always been there, just that most artifacts like this have been errated out. Now most artifacts still have their "continuous" effects active even while tapped. This card, {howling mine} and a few others are the exceptions.
That's true, but it's not really what the focus was here. He just means the fact that Trinisphere's effect is so unique that it requires its own slot in the rules.
613.10. Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player's maximum hand size, or say that a creature must attack this turn if able. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 601.2e. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and 613.7).
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be . It can't be reduced to less than . Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Rule 613.10 and 602.2e cover this. I think that Trinisphere's Gathering rules make it seem like a unique rule is what causes the confusion. But back on point.
Trinisphere's locks in the mana cost of a spell, once all additional costs and cost differences are combined as stated by "Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied."
Hmm... With {Trinisphere}, I still have to pay 3 colorless if I remove a blue card for {Force of Will}? This is interesting.