So I'm working on an {Experiment Kraj} EDH deck, and came upon an odd interaction that I'm not 100% sure on and would love some confirmation.
Say Mr. Kraj gives a +1/+1 counter to {Kazandu Tuskcaller}. Now, because of the way Experiment Kraj works (has ALL activated abilities of creatures with +1 counters), and with the help of this ruling:
6/15/2010 The abilities a leveler grants to itself don't overwrite any other abilities it may have. In particular, they don't overwrite the creature's level up ability; it always has that.
Does Experiment Kraj immediately have (in addition to the level up ability) the activated abilities of {T}: make an elephant and {T}: make 2 elephants? Or does Kraj need to level up to use them, meaning that those abilities themselves are tied to the level counters rather than using the ability being a property of the leveler creature and not the ability itself?
My gut says no. The reason for this is 702.86b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=702.86b): Each card printed with a level up ability is known as a leveler card. It has a nonstandard layout and includes two level symbols that are themselves keyword abilities. See rule 710, "Leveler Cards."
If I understand this correctly you need the level counters to access the ability.
If Kraj were becoming a copy, I'd agree. But he's not. He's simply gaining all activated abilities of the card. {T}: Make two elephants is an activated ability of the card - it just happens to be preceded by a level symbol.
710.4. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=710.4.): Any ability a leveler card has that isn't preceded by a level symbol is treated normally. In particular, each leveler permanent has its level up ability (see rule 702.86) at all times; it may be activated regardless of how many level counters are on that permanent.
Experiment Kraj may have gained the level up ability with everything else, but it didn't change the fact that Kraj is not printed as leveler or has a level-up layout. Again, he's not copying anything... Just "borrowing" activated abilities. So does Kraj even care about that level symbol preceding it? He's gaining the ability, not the preceding level symbol.
In other words, I'm suggesting that Kraj lacks this static ability of levelers:
710.2. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=710.2.): A level symbol is a keyword ability that represents a static ability. The level symbol includes either a range of numbers, indicated here as "N1-N2," or a single number followed by a plus sign, indicated here as "N3+." Any abilities printed within the same text box striation as a level symbol are part of its static ability. The same is true of the power/toughness box printed within that striation, indicated here as "[P/T]."
It's a really wonky interaction. I could see arguments for "it has none of the abilities," "it has all of the abilities," and "it has the one ability that the tuskcaller currently has based on its current level."
Quote from: Gorzo on October 20, 2014, 12:24:30 PM
If Kraj were becoming a copy, I'd agree. But he's not. He's simply gaining all activated abilities of the card. {T}: Make two elephants is an activated ability of the card - it just happens to be preceded by a level symbol.
710.4. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=710.4.): Any ability a leveler card has that isn't preceded by a level symbol is treated normally. In particular, each leveler permanent has its level up ability (see rule 702.86) at all times; it may be activated regardless of how many level counters are on that permanent.
Experiment Kraj may have gained the level up ability with everything else, but it didn't change the fact that Kraj is not printed as leveler or has a level-up layout. Again, he's not copying anything... Just "borrowing" activated abilities. So does Kraj even care about that level symbol preceding it? He's gaining the ability, not the preceding level symbol.
In other words, I'm suggesting that Kraj lacks this static ability of levelers:
710.2. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=710.2.): A level symbol is a keyword ability that represents a static ability. The level symbol includes either a range of numbers, indicated here as "N1-N2," or a single number followed by a plus sign, indicated here as "N3+." Any abilities printed within the same text box striation as a level symbol are part of its static ability. The same is true of the power/toughness box printed within that striation, indicated here as "[P/T]."
It's a really wonky interaction. I could see arguments for "it has none of the abilities," "it has all of the abilities," and "it had the one ability that the tuskcaller currently has based on its current level."
That last thing could be argued too indeed. The leveler only has the abilities in the textbox if it has the appropriate level. Thus Kraj would have any activated abilities the leveler has at that moment. This is tricky though. Last times I tried to reason rulings here based on rulings I got it all wrong. This is just me thinking along mind.
Thanks Noble. The second is exactly what I tried to say but without all the disclaimer your post is a lot clearer.
Quote from: Noblellama on October 20, 2014, 12:58:56 PM
If Kraj could level then he would gain them or if the tusk gets to the proper level and "gains access" then Kraj gets them.
My thought
Just to confirm, this is correct. If you put a +1/+1 Counter on a level 0 creature, Kraj will simply have the Level Up ability, which is useless for itself. If the Leveler reaches the appropriate levels and gains new abilities, though, Kraj will also gain those abilities.
This^ because until the creature reaches appropriate level. It doesn't have the abilities. So therefore, they wouldn't have that ability to give to Kraj.
now just to confirm, can kraj level up but it means nothing? or he cant even level up?
Quote from: particle on October 21, 2014, 10:55:36 AM
now just to confirm, can kraj level up but it means nothing? or he cant even level up?
He gains the ability to level up, but since it's not a Leveler card, it doesn't do anything except add Level counters
Try to fit this interaction into that deck!!
Make Kraj a planeswalker!!
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-qa/threads/2252756
Quote from: rarehuntertay on October 21, 2014, 11:52:45 AM
Try to fit this interaction into that deck!!
Make Kraj a planeswalker!!
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-qa/threads/2252756
While this still works (for the most part), the way Loyalty abilities work has been changed to prevent infinite activations off of a Kraj with Planeswalkers abilities. It used to be that you may only activate a loyalty ability of a Planeswalker permanent (specifically), once per turn. As Kraj was not a Planeswalker, it wasn't bound by that, allowing you to constantly activate the gained loyalty abilities. It's been changed to any permanent, so Kraj can only use one Loyalty ability per turn.
606.3. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=606.3.): A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
Notice how it specifically says Permanent, instead of Planeswalker.
Quote from: Remillo on October 21, 2014, 12:19:33 PM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on October 21, 2014, 11:52:45 AM
Try to fit this interaction into that deck!!
Make Kraj a planeswalker!!
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-qa/threads/2252756
While this still works (for the most part), the way Loyalty abilities work has been changed to prevent infinite activations off of a Kraj with Planeswalkers abilities. It used to be that you may only activate a loyalty ability of a Planeswalker permanent (specifically), once per turn. As Kraj was not a Planeswalker, it wasn't bound by that, allowing you to constantly activate the gained loyalty abilities. It's been changed to any permanent, so Kraj can only use one Loyalty ability per turn.
I knew about the change. But it's still funny to see kraj activate walker abilities. That raises a question for me that I'll ask in another topic.
So if you found a way to infinitely flicker him with a {Concordant Crossroads} can you (theoretically) get infinite triggers?
Quote from: Munchlax on October 21, 2014, 10:23:31 PM
So if you found a way to infinitely flicker him with a {Concordant Crossroads} can you (theoretically) get infinite triggers?
{Ghostly Flicker}
{Voidwalk}
{Nephalia Smuggler}
Come to mind.
Quote from: Munchlax on October 21, 2014, 10:23:31 PM
So if you found a way to infinitely flicker him with a {Concordant Crossroads} can you (theoretically) get infinite triggers?
If you flicker a pw, you'd be able to activate a pw ability again right? If so, then also with Cral. However, since Craj does not enter play with loyalty counters you could only use + abilities. Plenty of those can win you the game if applied infinite though :)
I am still trying to figure out how how he gets the PW abilitys has it talks about +1/+1 counters on creatures not perminates.
Quote from: redwolv on October 22, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
I am still trying to figure out how how he gets the PW abilitys has it talks about +1/+1 counters on creatures not perminates.
You have to use a combination of {Memnarch} and {Karn, Silver Golem} to turn a PW into a creature
Quote from: rarehuntertay on October 22, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: redwolv on October 22, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
I am still trying to figure out how how he gets the PW abilitys has it talks about +1/+1 counters on creatures not perminates.
You have to use a combination of {Memnarch} and {Karn, Silver Golem} to turn a PW into a creature
also {mycosynth lattice} if you hate blue.
Or simply by using Gideon or the new Sarkhan, who become creatures on their own, and slapping a +1 counter on them with Kraj or otherwise while they are in their creature form.
Quote from: particle on October 22, 2014, 11:55:16 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on October 22, 2014, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: redwolv on October 22, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
I am still trying to figure out how how he gets the PW abilitys has it talks about +1/+1 counters on creatures not perminates.
You have to use a combination of {Memnarch} and {Karn, Silver Golem} to turn a PW into a creature
also {mycosynth lattice} if you hate blue.
Does /nobody/ remember {March of the Machines}? It'd work too.
So what if Kraj used {Gideon Jura's} +1? What would happen
Quote from: Munchlax on October 22, 2014, 05:41:28 PM
So what if Kraj used {Gideon Jura's} +1? What would happen
first {gideon jura} would need a +1.
Quote from: Munchlax on October 22, 2014, 05:41:28 PM
So what if Kraj used {Gideon Jura's} +1? What would happen
Kraj would get a Loyalty Counter, and an ability saying "During target player's next turn, creatures that player controls attack Experiment Kraj if able". But, since creatures aren't attack-able objects or players, it simply wont do anything unless Kraj somehow becomes a planeswalker during that player's next Declare Attackers step.