Really easy one:
One of my creatures is a 4/4 double-strike trample creature.
An opponent chump blocks with his 2/4 garbage card.
I thought he would take 4 damage from second combat damage phase.
He insists he doesn't. I thought since the first strike combat damage phase kills the blocker, the second damage goes through because of trample... am I wrong?
However if he were to have blocked with something like {fog bank}, you would have to deal 2 damage to it in BOTH combat phases.
Noblela, I disagree bases on ruling:510.1c (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=510.1c): A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.
Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Vastwood Gorger (a 5/6 creature) is Pride Guardian (a 0/3 creature) then Llanowar Elves (a 1/1 creature). Vastwood Gorger can assign 3 damage to the Guardian and 2 damage to the Elves, 4 damage to the Guardian and 1 damage to the Elves, or 5 damage to the Guardian.
Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Vastwood Gorger (a 5/6 creature) is Pride Guardian (a 0/3 creature) then Llanowar Elves (a 1/1 creature). During the declare blockers step, the defending player casts Giant Growth targeting Pride Guardian, which gives it +3/+3 until end of turn. Vastwood Gorger must assign its 5 damage to the Guardian.
Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Vastwood Gorger (a 5/6 creature) is Pride Guardian (a 0/3 creature) then Llanowar Elves (a 1/1 creature). During the declare blockers step, the defending player casts Mending Hands targeting Pride Guardian, which prevents the next 4 damage that would be dealt to it. Vastwood Gorger can assign 3 damage to the Guardian and 2 damage to the Elves, 4 damage to the Guardian and 1 damage to the Elves, or 5 damage to the Guardian.
Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Enormous Baloth (a 7/7 creature) is Trained Armodon (a 3/3 creature) that already has 2 damage marked on it, then Foriysian Brigade (a 2/4 creature that can block an additional creature), then Silverback Ape (a 5/5 creature). The damage assignment order of an attacking Durkwood Boars (a 4/4 creature) is the same Foriysian Brigade, then Goblin Piker (a 2/1 creature). Among other possibilities, the active player may have the Baloth assign 1 damage to the Armodon, 1 damage to the Brigade, and 5 damage to the Ape, and have the Boars assign 3 damage to the Brigade and 1 damage to the Piker.
In short, the first line is important. The creature was blocked, the blocking creature is killed in the first dmg step, but the attacker is still blocked. It will deal no combat dmg in regular step.
Quote from: Kaylesh on October 15, 2014, 02:01:18 AM
In short, the first line is important. The creature was blocked, the blocking creature is killed in the first dmg step, but the attacker is still blocked. It will deal no combat dmg in regular step.
You might want to read the rulings for trample first.
702.17c If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.
That's a first for me. The rules contradicting each other.
i also found this in the rules:
510.5. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=510.5.): If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that had neither first strike nor double strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.
Which makes me think that even without trample I should have assigned combat damage during the second combat damage step.
All tho other tech. I remember points to trample being needed to deal damage to an opponent in this situation, though. ( see for example rulings amd interpretations of rulings for cheesemaster white commander, Jerkhald.
{General Jarkeld}
Quote from: Daxos on October 15, 2014, 03:35:39 AM
i also found this in the rules:
510.5. (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=510.5.): If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that had neither first strike nor double strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.
Which makes me think that even without trample I should have assigned combat damage during the second combat damage step.
All tho other tech. I remember points to trample being needed to deal damage to an opponent in this situation, though. ( see for example rulings amd interpretations of rulings for cheesemaster white commander, Jerkhald.
You assign combat damage in the second combat damage step only if there is a blocker to assign it to. If you do not have trample and there are no blockers, nothing happens.
So I think the point that is confusing to some is that the creature is still blocked, says the rules. They are not contradicting eachother. The creature is still blocked, but instead of having to deal its damage through the 2/2 twice, the the first strike kills the creature. Then the creature can be considered replace with a 0/0 creature for the regular damage step.
ok great.
in a game so finely designed,
having to make up imaginary 0/0s after a first of two combat rounds just "feels" wrong.
but the rules are the rules. good job everyone. and thanks.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on October 16, 2014, 04:54:02 PM
Now I know this has been settled but I disagree with this, I feel that it shouldn't be this way... Considering the whole double strike + Lifelink, ruling, where you only gain first strike life and not then normal strike life....
what if your creature had Double Strike Lifelink and also Trample? based on this you would gain life from both strikes right?
Quote from: mickeven on October 16, 2014, 05:03:58 PM
Quote from: GlowackAttack on October 16, 2014, 04:54:02 PM
Now I know this has been settled but I disagree with this, I feel that it shouldn't be this way... Considering the whole double strike + Lifelink, ruling, where you only gain first strike life and not then normal strike life....
what if your creature had Double Strike Lifelink and also Trample? based on this you would gain life from both strikes right?
What? Why don't you gain life from both double strike hits? "Whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" is pretty straightforward.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 16, 2014, 05:31:20 PM
Quote from: mickeven on October 16, 2014, 05:03:58 PM
Quote from: GlowackAttack on October 16, 2014, 04:54:02 PM
Now I know this has been settled but I disagree with this, I feel that it shouldn't be this way... Considering the whole double strike + Lifelink, ruling, where you only gain first strike life and not then normal strike life....
what if your creature had Double Strike Lifelink and also Trample? based on this you would gain life from both strikes right?
What? Why don't you gain life from both double strike hits? "Whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" is pretty straightforward.
well lets say the creature blocking die on the first strike, theres nothing to deal damage to on the regular strike. But i think if the defending creature survives the first strike then you get life both time
Quote from: mickeven on October 16, 2014, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 16, 2014, 05:31:20 PM
Quote from: mickeven on October 16, 2014, 05:03:58 PM
Quote from: GlowackAttack on October 16, 2014, 04:54:02 PM
Now I know this has been settled but I disagree with this, I feel that it shouldn't be this way... Considering the whole double strike + Lifelink, ruling, where you only gain first strike life and not then normal strike life....
what if your creature had Double Strike Lifelink and also Trample? based on this you would gain life from both strikes right?
What? Why don't you gain life from both double strike hits? "Whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" is pretty straightforward.
well lets say the creature blocking die on the first strike, theres nothing to deal damage to on the regular strike. But i think if the defending creature survives the first strike then you get life both time
That makes sense. Thanks.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on October 16, 2014, 04:54:02 PM
Now I know this has been settled but I disagree with this, I feel that it shouldn't be this way... Considering the whole double strike + Lifelink, ruling, where you only gain first strike life and not then normal strike life....
Because the 0/0 concept is to help people understand. There's no actual creature there to do damage to during the normal damage phase.