I know that EDH is supposed to be the fun format, I also know that some people like to go really hardcore with it. What are your thoughts?
I ran a red black land hate deck in EDH once. Any game after the first, you're always the first dead and even the first game wasn't that fun.
If it's an annoying-gimmick killer you're after, to put a Zur or Uril in its place for example, then smash it out. But I'd steer clear as they're a little OP and often times not much fun for either party.
If used correctly, it can be a powerful tool that can end games really quickly. The problem is, most people don't use it correctly and throw it around whenever they feel like it, making people hate it in general. Things like Armageddon, I only cast if it will basically win me the game. Say, my board state is far superior to anyone else's and I could win just given time and minimal disruption with what I already have. It's fine there since it's helping me finish the game. Things like lands that blow up other lands, or {Stone Rain}s are pretty much always fine, since they can single out problematic lands. If someone drops a Hideaway land, it feels awesome to immediately {Strip Mine} it. If I'm playing a Voltron build with red, being able to get rid of a {Maze of Ith} is usually necessary.
TL:DR: Use it correctly and people shouldn't hate you. It's people that don't use it correctly or try to use it as a gimmick that perpetuate the hate.
Land destruction is a strategy. Different strategies should be encouraged.
These two lads here are very correct. If used precisely, it's a very effective strategy. Ive seen it used best in Jund, but rarely used effectively without getting annoying or wreckless (myself included, admittedly. I haven't attempted an LD build since my deck building skills matured past "INCLUDEALLTHECOOLCARDS!!!")
Every strategy needs a way to be punished. I don't see people getting heated about barfing creatures out, make a million mana or making their commander impossible to interact with and swinging for 1 million.
Players will find anything to complain about, they insufficiently build their decks to deal with land destruction, but they're the first to include graveyard hate in case they run into reanimator.
Believe me, as much as land destruction is annoying: the game is better with its inclusion. Once it is removed something else will be a problem. Don't take away answers, just build better decks. If you play with the same group then just add more manarocks or spells that grant indestructibility. Variance gives Commander its character.
I play Oloro stax deck that taxes everything anyone can do, and plays mass land destruction with no real wincon. My playgroup has adapted and I don't win nearly as much as I had when everyone was complaining.
I used to tech {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth} against the mill deck in the group. That was a meta move. A certain type of player do not believe in meta gaming, theyd rather complain and ban then find answers. As a group Casual players profess their deck building skills and creativity, and laud netdeckers, then refuse to metagame - considering other players as cheating, paying to win or uncreative.
Deck building does not stop once everything is sleeved.
I have an infect/sacrifice chain deck... People hate infect in commander, but I hate lockdown like vorinclex or Iona. They are still legal in EDH, so I can't say you can't run those.
If you have only one deck: make it versatile, you can win casually or aggressively.
My dragon deck is like that. If I see you thrown down a threat or combo piece that could let you win next turn, just hope my {Scion of the Ur-Dragon} isn't out or he's swinging in for an infect combo or simply nicol bolas to discard your hand and destroy your combo you wanted to play.
Land destruction can be super dick, but so is infect, life gain, lock decks, sac decks etc
^With infect in mind, I do think {triumph of the hordes} should be banned in edh. It's far too easy to win with that card, and it makes for the least exciting endings I've ever seen. I just stopped running it because it doesn't even feel like a win when I do win with it.
But anyways, yeah I've gotten a lot of hate from using MLD in my {maelstrom wanderer} deck, but cascading into a {jokulhaups} or an {apocalypse} is just SO awesome! I have a 7/5, you all have nothing :D Plus it's not even an instant win, because it takes a while to kill everyone on the table still and people can still draw into {path to exile}, and other cheap kills.
OOO anyone got a triumph of the horde foil? Me wantz!!!
I run {Jokulhaups}, {Decree of Annihilation} and {Obliterate} in my {Nekusar, the Mindrazer} deck
I played a {Jhoira of the Ghitu} deck.
😋
I personally don't like land destruction in decks, unless it's against a rampy Karametra EDH that just needs to have all of its Forests and Plains chopped down.
Lands are the most important card in Magic; and if you have no land, then you're a sitting duck. Not much fun for any deck that doesn't ramp.
^ this. I don't play land destruction because it's a form of denial, and playing denial makes the game very unfun for everyone.
There is occasionally a need for removing certain annoying lands, which is why I like cards like {Acidic Slime}, so the option is there when needed.
But then we can argue against vorinclex and winter orb and stasis style decks. Sacrifice shutdown decks usually keep a board clean as a whistle
I mean once you play this EDH land destro deck, your friends will kill you first
Lands are a resource, so is life total, hand and libraries. I know plenty of decks that play {Armageddon} to assure a win, and they're not "land destruction" decks exactly.
I use my land destruction for tempo. I think players over react to it. They'd rather have the creature hit the board and get {Doom Blade} rather then {Cancel}. There is a bit of disconnect in the psyche of Magic participants.
If you think of Lands as cards in hand, it would be just as bad to be forced to discard one. But it is only when that card is on the battlefield do people think it is worth something. Many players don't remember Mass Land Destruction in Standard. Imagine a meta with zero creature wipes. If you showed up running {Wrath of God}, you'd see complaints about that too.
Many Commander players think that ramp, ramp, ramp, big spell is all EDH is all about. That is "fun" to them. They don't care about a balanced format that punishes players overextending. More casual players and especially those who haven't been exposed to eternal formats (a large portion of Commanders player base I presume) don't really even consider a deck that can attack greedy mana bases. When exposed to it, instead of trying to build around it and fight those strategies, they complain. A LOT. Because it's easier.
I would wonder why they'd rather have an unbalanced game where you can run 3 colors with minimal drawbacks rather then a game that challenges you to think differently. A case can be made that maybe mass land destruction slows the game down, but their exclusion only benefits faster decks or other cheap combo decks. Why should they get a buff and tempo decks get a nerf? If it's really about making games faster, ban {Karn Liberated} and lower the life total.
I will always refer to this (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/94213426855/deck-complaints) when talking about Magic players. In my experience nothing makes players all happy, and I can't spend my time worrying about it. I know of playgroups that ban all Planeswalkers, playgroups that ban extra turns, groups that gang up on aggro players, groups that gang up on Voltron players, groups that ban tutors, groups that think combo is unfair. You get the point.
Quote from: Taysby on September 25, 2014, 07:27:45 PM
But restarting the game after 3 hours is so much fun! ;)
Lmao, every time I've done that people just scoop...
Quote from: Dudecore on September 25, 2014, 07:38:24 PM
I will always refer to this (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/94213426855/deck-complaints) when talking about Magic players.
Bahahahaaaa! Got a good laugh outta this! There's one guy in my occasional play group, this is his biography. His other catch phrase is 'stop your whinging!' We call him Ronny...
Quote from: Spikepit on September 25, 2014, 10:27:03 AM
I haven't attempted an LD build since my deck building skills matured past "INCLUDEALLTHECOOLCARDS!!!")
What are you talking about? This IS the pinnacle of build maturity.
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It's important to pace the game so that everyone at the table gets to play their piece. Let the Johnnies combo & oddball their way to a loss. Let the Timmies take a few swings with their fatties as they succumb to ther opponents. And THEN let the Spikes land wipe the table around turn 8.
Good times for all.
Don't get so mad if it happens to you.
I mean you're either playing with friends or you're at a commander tournament at an open or GP and $20 in credit is on the line.
Quote from: ConanEdo on September 26, 2014, 01:54:29 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on September 25, 2014, 07:20:59 PM
Lands are a resource, so is life total, hand and libraries. I know plenty of decks that play {Armageddon} to assure a win, and they're not "land destruction" decks exactly.
I use my land destruction for tempo. I think players over react to it. They'd rather have the creature hit the board and get {Doom Blade} rather then {Cancel}. There is a bit of disconnect in the psyche of Magic participants.
If you think of Lands as cards in hand, it would be just as bad to be forced to discard one. But it is only when that card is on the battlefield do people think it is worth something. Many players don't remember Mass Land Destruction in Standard. Imagine a meta with zero creature wipes. If you showed up running {Wrath of God}, you'd see complaints about that too.
Many Commander players think that ramp, ramp, ramp, big spell is all EDH is all about. That is "fun" to them. They don't care about a balanced format that punishes players overextending. More casual players and especially those who haven't been exposed to eternal formats (a large portion of Commanders player base I presume) don't really even consider a deck that can attack greedy mana bases. When exposed to it, instead of trying to build around it and fight those strategies, they complain. A LOT. Because it's easier.
I would wonder why they'd rather have an unbalanced game where you can run 3 colors with minimal drawbacks rather then a game that challenges you to think differently. A case can be made that maybe mass land destruction slows the game down, but their exclusion only benefits faster decks or other cheap combo decks. Why should they get a buff and tempo decks get a nerf? If it's really about making games faster, ban {Karn Liberated} and lower the life total.
Also, on a personal note, I wish everyone would stop with the pendantic, condescending argument that countering a creature is the same as killing it immediately with a kill spell. It's not, it really isn't. Every color can interact with a kill spell, there are lots of activated abilities and instants that can save it. Kill spells don't nerf etb or triggered abilities. With counterspells it's either run your own, play one of the red cards that hates blue (vexing shusher, Red Elemental Blast, Gutteral Response, etc.), or discard it. The answers are so comparatively narrow and it's time people stopped pretending they're equal.
Yeah, pretty much this. Couldn't agree more.
That is why {red elemental blast} is probably my favorite card in the game!
Quote from: ConanEdo on September 26, 2014, 02:03:08 AM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on September 26, 2014, 02:00:43 AM
Don't get so mad if it happens to you.
I mean you're either playing with friends or you're at a commander tournament at an open or GP and $20 in credit is on the line.
I would never play EDH at a GP. If I wanted to see Ad Nauseum vomit out a deck on turn 2 or 3 or watch Angry Hermit dredge up a win I would play vintage.
Sorry the scenario is impossible in your world
Counters and Kill spells aren't literally the same thing, but they're effectively doing the same thing. One stops EtB effects, the other has potential to clear more then 1 creature effectively. Blue also "interacts" with spells too, something kill spells do not do, which is a good thing if for no other reason but to keep it "interactive". They're both card disadvantage. Wouldn't etb triggers preventing the creature from being killed non-interactive?
Counters = stop a single threat.
Kill spell = stop a single threat/multiple threats.
The great thing about Magic is the multiple ways on offer to do essentially the same thing. This thinly veiled, cheesy concept of "interaction" is the Commander darling of the "some strategies are unfun" mentality. It is just not found in evidence. Blue cannot destroy creatures, red cannot destroy enchantments, white does not draw cards, green can't fly, black doesn't do something... its the way the game is.
Mass Land Destruction might not be for you or your playgroup, ban it. I would advise against it, but who cares what I think? I can't make anyone have fun.The idea that since every color can be involved with dealing with creatures is to miss the point entirely. 1 card type does not have manifest destiny over the others. Creature cards are not the alpha and omega of cards. Play around the threat of counters or try baiting counters. There are 4 players, counters are actually not even that good.
Which is why I said "I personally don't like land hate" :)
This is also why I love Magic; so much of it is left up to your own personal flavor.
I was more so referring to your comment about the idea of never playing commander side event at a GP
The argument can be made that removal is on a much higher level then Counters, especially in multiplayer. I'm just suggesting that they're different, not that one is better or worse. My previous comments reflect my belief that in a game of rock, paper, scissors you would not want to ban scissors. Magic is like a complex, multi tiered spider Web of possibilities. It is the fun of the game. It's been described as "playing chess but you pick your own pieces".
I don't appreciate the superiority others feel over strategies like Land Destruction. I've been known to not articulate my feelings properly, or be confrontational, but my point still stands. Every deck needs a weakness, every strategy needs a weakness. I don't see the point of taking the piss out of land destruction and referring to Johnny combo decks as the only true source of fun in the format. As though it was the definitive way to play. It's wrong.
I think that it's in everyone's best interest to keep the format fun for themselves and their friends - but understand that limiting the strategies your exposed to is probably limiting your fun also.
Strip mines happen.
{Stripmine} and {crucible of worlds} by t3/4.
Diiiiiiiiick
I believe although EDH is the land of possibility, land hate is simply one way to take the most obscene mana bases and tone them back slightly. All colors have some access to hate, and it IS unfun to play against land hate, but people say the same about almost everything else. Have a combo that wins, insert complaint here. Want another turn or two, start the whining. I've even met people that complain about playing against less obtuse things, like newer players, or testing a new deck idea.
TL, dr. Land hate is simply one of magic's whipping boys because of people complaining.
End rant.
I completely agree, Dudecore. I hope you weren't assuming the comments I made were indicating that ANY piss needs to be drained from LD. Rather, I do believe EDH has a great propensity for balancing out both in terms of house rules (when banning cards for an evening is fine) or when 2 or more players band together to shut down the guy who comes out swinging. I think its delightful when everyone goes balls to the wall after the player who sets out an Uril or Kaalia (I've been that guy ;) ) or against the guy who starts blowing up lands on turn 2 or 3 (I've LOVED being that guy). You can bring whatever deck you want but it might bring down the gauntlet from everyone else. 2 player EDH is a bit more touchy. I think you have to establish some expectations for which decks to play with your opponent so you get a more even and enjoyable match.
As for competitive play, I simply have no interest in it or knowledge of its rules of etiquette.