so... setup example:
I cast Primal Surge and reveal 40 creatures one by one from the top of my library and I stop. Purphoros, God of the Forge was the 10th card revealed, with 30 additional creatures revealed after that (adding up to 40 as just mentioned).
Does Purphoros ability...
deal 60 damage to each oponent? or
deal 80 damage to each opponent? or
deal no damage at all? or
something else?
From card rulings and a search on this forum I gather one must think that upon the Primal Surge resolution, "they all enter at the same time"... so, if they're all ETB at the same time, what's the correct way that Purphoros "sees"?
i thought card tag links where automatic :( if i had known how to link i'd done it, as instructed by readme. sorry.
Quote from: Daxos on June 06, 2014, 01:11:14 AM
so... setup example:
I cast {Primal Surge} and reveal 40 creatures one by one from the top of my library and I stop. {Purphoros, God of the Forge} was the 10th card revealed, with 30 additional creatures revealed after that (adding up to 40 as just mentioned).
Does Purphoros ability...
deal 60 damage to each oponent? or
deal 80 damage to each opponent? or
deal no damage at all? or
something else?
From card rulings and a search on this forum I gather one must think that upon the Primal Surge resolution, "they all enter at the same time"... so, if they're all ETB at the same time, what's the correct way that Purphoros "sees"?
Links added
yay thanks :)
Your god does 60 if they are all creatures because surge say that it enters the battle field then repeats so the other cards before he enters doesn't make him trigger. Also he does trigger/resolve his ability till after surge resolves
I hate to disagree and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But I read the card as they all enter seperately. It says you may put the permanent onto the battlefield. If you do (as in put it on the battlefield) you may repeat this process. I feel that the permanent has to hit the battlefield before you dig for the next card. I'm gonna say no. But again, if there's a good explanation as to why I'm wrong, please feel welcome.
Quote from: Wingnut on June 06, 2014, 08:01:43 AM
I hate to disagree and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But I read the card as they all enter seperately. It says you may put the permanent onto the battlefield. If you do (as in put it on the battlefield) you may repeat this process. I feel that the permanent has to hit the battlefield before you dig for the next card. I'm gonna say no. But again, if there's a good explanation as to why I'm wrong, please feel welcome.
so even though they are seperate actions, they all happen during the resolution of one spell. so nothing can trigger until the entire spell is finished resolving, since things cant trigger mid-resolution. once primal surge has resolved, purph will see all this stuff entering, since it entered during the same spell's resolution, so effectively at the same time.
so after reading your discussions here's what I think: it seems as though Primal Surge is worded such that the permanents have to be thought of as "they have definitely entered the battlefield" . The twist is that all of each creature's respective "enters the battlefield" abilities have to be postponed until Primal Surge itself (sorcery) is fully resolved. Then as per the ruling, starting with the active player (me, who played Primal Surge and then made 40 creatures enter the battlefield) may chose to place other spells and effects on the stack as they see fit.
"5/1/2012 If putting any of those permanent cards onto the battlefield causes abilities to trigger, those abilities will wait to go on the stack until Primal Surge has finished resolving. Starting with the active player, each player puts his or her abilities on the stack in any order."
As such, it seems in order to place the 2 damage on the stack, Purphy's ability has to have been triggered in the first place: so he will only see the 30 creatures entering the battlefield after it.
But Purphy's 2 damage ability won't be the only thing on the stack, as say a [tag] Bronzebeak Moa [/tag] will also want to gain +117/+117 (39 x +3/+3) if she was the first card revealed and ETB with the Primal Surge. WhatI now think I understand about the ruling is that I will need to choose the order of all those resolutions as I best see fit, although they would already have to have been triggered (and remembered by players in a "don't care about the order" pseudo stack). So in this particular case I'd probably choose to deal the 60 damage first and if anyone survives (it's possible) then sort through all the other effects triggered - again choosing their most convenient order of resolution. THAT IS QUITE POWERFUL!
My only headscratcher in this scenario still is the part about OTHER PLAYERS putting stuff in the stack after Primal Resolution. I mean it would seem like they just cast stuff (or their own "another creature enters the battlefield") and it resolves firstly, before all my abilitites. Does that mean that if they see me reveal and put an Eldrazi on the battlefield they can legally wait for the whole circus and finally cast a Counterspell and declare "I counter your Eldrazi" and then my Eldrazi is countered and it doesn't even enter the battlefield and Purphoros doesn't even see it?? That seems so counter intuitive!
Upon second reading of that ruling, it seems to only mention Enters The Battlefield Abilities, so it seems that the creatures themselves enter the battlefield, implying they can't be countered. They are already there, besides, what put them there is not a creature casting "summon" spell, but the effects of another sorcery (Primal Surge). Also this means that abilities that check if the creature is being casted from your hand won't trigger. Am I right in this interpretations? does this all mean that your creatures become uncounterable in practice? wow.
That's a lot to take in.
I'll be checking back,
and thanks for giving this a few of your brain cpu mental cycles.
:)
Ok, let's give this one a go.
During the resolution of primal surge, abilities will trigger, but they don't actually go on the stack until a player receives priority. In this case, there are a lot of ETB effects that trigger and wait. Once primal surge finishes resolving and hits the GY, everyone puts their triggered abilities on the stack in ap/nap order. You've already said as much, but I want to provide some context and it also helps me keep my thoughts in line.
You choose the order you put them on the stack, and once chosen the order cannot be changed. Also note that you can mix and match the order, like put 3 purphy triggers, then 4 bronze beak triggers then another 5 purphy triggers etc. purphy won't get 1 trigger on the stack doing 60 damage, he'll get 30 triggers on the stack doing 2 damage each (important for {stifle} effects).
The ruling mentions opponents placing objects on the stack because they may have ETB triggers also.
Creatures entering the bf this way can't be countered or responded to because they don't use the stack when entering. You are also correct that they aren't being cast and so won't trigger abilities that look for spells being cast.
I think I hit all the areas you were confused about in your last post. Let me know if I missed one.
That they do. iPhones aren't the best way to write novels.
Tl;dr... I love iPhones. :)
Quote from: Noblellama on June 06, 2014, 12:36:01 PM
iPads are only marginally better
Not entirely, can't walk and jam unless you have enormous pockets. :p
Backpack and Bluetooth headphones :-)
This guy^ lol
haha thanks guys i am new here and already love it.
yea i think we are pretty much in agreement.... it seems a counterspell better counter the Primal Surge itself or have to deal with all the creatures after they are already in the battlefield, in other words do nothing since at that point counterspell can't do squat about creatures already in play (as they all are).
I plan on putting into play Gilt-Leaf Archdruid this way with a bunch of his druid buddies, so that after Primal Surge is done I can immediately take control of all target opponent's lands. I may need new friends after that.
anyway thanks for the brainstorming :) shelf this ome. let it be of help for anyone else trying to pull this off among their friends.
Hey. I'm pretty new to the official rules of magic. Thanks for all the novels guys. It has taken me a while to understand even the concept of the stack. This gave me a much better understanding. Thanks
BTW I have a pocket on a single pair of shorts that can somehow fit an IPad.
Sorry to revive this but I just imagined something and I'm not sure how to apply the rules, so please help me think it through.
So I'm pretty sure one of my opponents will be packing a Purphoros, God of the Forge himself. The thing is my deck definitely has one that could be flipped into play by a Primal Surge as described during our original discussion. the thing is, I'm also packing a Gilded Drake. you can see where this is going:
What if my friend plays his Purphy (P#1) and I Gilded Drake it, so I become its controller. Then, next turn I Primal Surge, hulking out my own Purphy (P#2) on flip number ten out of forty....
1. Does the Legendary Rule instructing me to destroy one of the two Purphys resolves immediately upon P#2 hitting the board, even though we are mid-resolution of my Primal Surge Sorcery? Doesn't it use the stack as well?
2. If the answer to the first question is no, and the sacrifice occurs after the sorcery is done resolving... doesn't that mean that there will be two of each "deals 2 damage" triggers for each creature that entered after P#2?
3. If there would be indeed two triggers on the stack for each creature after Purphy#2, what happens to them after I sacrifice one of the Purphys. I think since the card that put them leaves play, perhaps they should be ignored or removed from the stack. But i'm not that sure since I remember some other rulings about stuff that lewves after placing stuff om the stack, and if I remember correctly, they do try to indeed play out.
4. If the answer to that last third question is something that is not obvious or simple, is there any diff. between sacrificing my God (P#2) versus sacrificing his God (P#1)? Is one option more advantageous than the other?, for me I mean.
5. What about if my Gilded Drake is one of the flipped cards instead? In that case, according to our collective understanding of these applicable rulings and scenarios, the Gilded Drake would stay on my side of the board until the end of Primal Surge flipping session (resolution). If that correct?
6. How do I tag/link to the cards as suggested on the Read-Me?
ok, have fun with this one. Check back soon, and thanks for the brain powers :)
so the legendary rule that will make you sacrific a purphorous will not interrupt a spell that is in the middle of resolving. the next time a player would recieve priority, state based actions are checked and you gotta sack one. but both will see the other creatures enter and trigger. those triggers will not be removed from the stack or nullified even if the purph that caused them is gone. gilded drakes ability will also wait for you to finish resolving surge, and then trigger and cause you to switch.
{gilded drake}. Cause I don't know the card.
Quote from: Pleeb on June 13, 2014, 09:55:13 AM
{gilded drake}. Cause I don't know the card.
i think originally it was printed as a downside to having a 3/3 flyer for 1u but then ppl realized how dumb it could be for stealing your opponents bomb.
wow Particle, if what you say is correct and true.... that's bonkers!
returning to original example,
Purphy#1 will see all 40 creatures enter the battlefield and put 40 2-damage delayed triggers on the stack
Purphy#2 will see all 30 creatures revealed from top of library that entered the battlefield after himself and place 30 2-damage delayed triggers on the stack.
Then upon Primal Surge going to graveyard, following APNAP we check state and apply Legend rule to sacrifice one of the two Purphys in play. Then I choose order of triggers and can legally say: Your Purphy deals 80 damage to all my opponents (since I controlled it) and My Purphy deals 60 damage to all my opponents...
Anyone care to survive and deal with my 30+ creature strong attacking army?
That is Bonkers!!
140 damage to eqch opponent, wow
Quote from: Daxos on June 13, 2014, 04:53:32 PM
wow Particle, if what you say is correct and true.... that's bonkers!
what are you referring to? {gilded drake}'s origin?