i cast {mirror mad phantasm} from my graveyard using {havengul lich}, the lich gets the abilities of the phantasm, i activate the shuffle/mill ability on the havengul lich, shuffling it into my library, its not a copy of the phantasm, so no copy exists in my deck and is therefor an auo self mill, this is my buddies idea just wondering if it was viable. Seems to me that you couldn't shuffle the lich into the libary
It does work. Whenever a card has an ability where it refers to itself such as mirror mad's, it is referring to the permanent that has that ability. So when {Havengul Lich} takes that ability, replace mirror mad phantasm with hanvgul lich.
It works:)
Lich has the 1u ability which shuffles it into the deck. But in the deck it is not a phantasm. So self mill happens:)
Quote from: Ibtrickey on May 14, 2014, 11:36:15 AM
It works:)
Lich has the 1u ability which shuffles it into the deck. But in the deck it is not a phantasm. So self mill happens:)
This is incorrect. The when a card refers to itself using its own name, it effectively reads "this card." The lich would shuffle in and you would mill until the lich is revealed again.
Here's a ruling:
201.4b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=201.4b): If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.
Example: Quicksilver Elemental says, in part, "{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn." If it gains an ability that says "{G}: Regenerate Cudgel Troll," activating that ability will regenerate Quicksilver Elemental, not the Cudgel Troll it gained the ability from.
Example: Glacial Ray is an instant with "splice onto Arcane" that says "Glacial Ray deals 2 damage to target creature or player." If it's spliced onto a Kodama's Reach, that Kodama's Reach deals 2 damage to the target creature or player.
Example: Dimir Doppelganger says "{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability." Dimir Doppelganger's ability is activated targeting a Runeclaw Bear card. The Doppelganger becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear and gains an ability that should be treated as saying "{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Runeclaw Bear becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability."
Quote from: DrainCleaner on May 14, 2014, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ibtrickey on May 14, 2014, 11:36:15 AM
It works:)
Lich has the 1u ability which shuffles it into the deck. But in the deck it is not a phantasm. So self mill happens:)
This is incorrect. The when a card refers to itself using its own name, it effectively reads "this card." The lich would shuffle in and you would mill until the lich is revealed again.
The difference here is that the Phantasm's ability specifically states 'a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm'. The ability doesn't refer to the ability's source, but a specific card. You'll mill until you actually hit a card with the given name, which n this case, is never.
And this is another case where the correct interaction can be found just by looking at Gatherer Rulings:
9/22/2011: You can only activate the ability if you control Mirror-Mad Phantasm, even if you don't own it.
9/22/2011: If no card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed (possibly because it was a card copying Mirror-Mad Phantasm or it was a token), all cards from that library will be put into their owner's graveyard.
9/22/2011: If another creature (such as Necrotic Ooze) gains Mirror-Mad Phantasm's activated ability, its owner reveals cards until he or she reveals a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm.
Quote from: Remillo on May 14, 2014, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: DrainCleaner on May 14, 2014, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ibtrickey on May 14, 2014, 11:36:15 AM
It works:)
Lich has the 1u ability which shuffles it into the deck. But in the deck it is not a phantasm. So self mill happens:)
This is incorrect. The when a card refers to itself using its own name, it effectively reads "this card." The lich would shuffle in and you would mill until the lich is revealed again.
The difference here is that the Phantasm's ability specifically states 'a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm'. The ability doesn't refer to the ability's source, but a specific card. You'll mill until you actually hit a card with the given name, which n this case, is never.
And this is another case where the correct interaction can be found just by looking at Gatherer Rulings:
9/22/2011: You can only activate the ability if you control Mirror-Mad Phantasm, even if you don't own it.
9/22/2011: If no card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed (possibly because it was a card copying Mirror-Mad Phantasm or it was a token), all cards from that library will be put into their owner's graveyard.
9/22/2011: If another creature (such as Necrotic Ooze) gains Mirror-Mad Phantasm's activated ability, its owner reveals cards until he or she reveals a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm.
I stand corrected. It seems i have neglected to read mirror-mad phantasm. My bad.