saw this rules discussion that was unanswered on the interwebs and wanted to see what iMtg thought.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/513901-aurelias-fury-bestow-gods
basically its discussing the card {aurelia's fury} and bestow cards like {hopeful eidolan}. when exactly does a bestow card become a noncreature spell? and will {aurelia's fury} prevent it from being cast/unwind once it has been illegally cast? please read the discussion on the link because a lot of rules were discussed for both sides.
some of the questions were answered but the main one unresolved is the one above.
not casting {aurelia's fury} in response. {aurelia's fury} has already resolved.
Well I mean if you are paying it's mana cost straight up you are casting a creature spell, so you can cast it.
the question is if you can bestow {hopeful eiodolan} not cast him normally.
You can not bestow him. He is a straight up non-creature spell when you cast him when you cast as bestow.
Quote from: particle on April 27, 2014, 11:25:57 PM
the question is if you can bestow {hopeful eiodolan} not cast him normally.
Taysby already addressed that. I was addressing taysbys question at the end of his response.
I would say you can't bestow it.
When you cast it for its bestow cost, you acknowledge it is an:
"aura - enchant creature spell"
instead.
So when you pay it for bestow; you are casting an aura not a creature. So you can't cast it.
You have to cast it as an aura to target a legal target, the spell can't change midcast and now be able to target a creature ; this would be my argument against someone reasoning it being a creature spell first.
I'm going to dissent and propose that, yes, you can cast a card using Bestow if you're been hit with Aurelia's Fury. The reasoning behind this is a little strange, but I'll do my best to explain it. To 'Cast' a spell means to move it from where it is to the Stack, choose modes, targets and pay a cost. To say that a player can't cast a spell means that none of these things can begin to happen (Rule 601.5, bottom of post). However, Bestow functions almost like a modal spell: you choose whether you're casting the creature or using bestow after the card is moved to the stack. Effects that determine whether or not a spell can begin to be cast look at that Spell card in the zone it's in before it's moved to the stack. In any zone except the stack with the Bestow cost paid, it's simply an Enchantment Creature. Because of creature being on the type line, you're perfectly able to cast it while being shot by Fury.
This was also buried in the Theros FAQ:
* You don't choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you're casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.
Essentially, it doesn't actually become a non-creature spell until after it's already on the stack, bypassing the restriction that Aurelia's Fury places on you. However, because it becomes a non-creature spell before costs are paid, you can't use mana from {Ancient Ziggurat} to pay a Bestow cost.
This was asked on JudgeApps for clarification, and if you'd bothered to actually look at the second page of the linked MTGSalv thread, Kahedron posted what was the verdict:
QuoteYes, you can.
Checking whether a spell is legal to be cast (for "can cast" effects) is done before you start the process of casting the spell, so before you choose to pay the bestow alternate cost. At that point, it's still a creature spell.
Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules NetRep
601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast. (Keyword is Begin)
Quote from: Taysby on April 28, 2014, 09:19:46 AM
But is also an enchantment too, not just a creature. Wouldn't fury keep it from being cast due to the word enchantment on it whether it will be bestowed or not?
a noncreature would require it to not have creature within it's types. That's like using {Maelstrom Pulse} to destroy {Seat of the Synod}. you can't do that.
Quote from: Remillo on April 28, 2014, 04:20:02 AM
I'm going to dissent and propose that, yes, you can cast a card using Bestow if you're been hit with Aurelia's Fury. The reasoning behind this is a little strange, but I'll do my best to explain it. To 'Cast' a spell means to move it from where it is to the Stack, choose modes, targets and pay a cost. To say that a player can't cast a spell means that none of these things can begin to happen (Rule 601.5, bottom of post). However, Bestow functions almost like a modal spell: you choose whether you're casting the creature or using bestow after the card is moved to the stack. Effects that determine whether or not a spell can begin to be cast look at that Spell card in the zone it's in before it's moved to the stack. In any zone except the stack with the Bestow cost paid, it's simply an Enchantment Creature. Because of creature being on the type line, you're perfectly able to cast it while being shot by Fury.
This was also buried in the Theros FAQ:
* You don't choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you're casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.
Essentially, it doesn't actually become a non-creature spell until after it's already on the stack, bypassing the restriction that Aurelia's Fury places on you. However, because it becomes a non-creature spell before costs are paid, you can't use mana from {Ancient Ziggurat} to pay a Bestow cost.
This was asked on JudgeApps for clarification, and if you'd bothered to actually look at the second page of the linked MTGSalv thread, Kahedron posted what was the verdict:
QuoteYes, you can.
Checking whether a spell is legal to be cast (for "can cast" effects) is done before you start the process of casting the spell, so before you choose to pay the bestow alternate cost. At that point, it's still a creature spell.
Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules NetRep
601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast. (Keyword is Begin)
I completely agree with this. When you cast a spell, it immediately goes onto the stack, then you pay the cost. When you play/cast a creature with bestow, it first goes on the stack as a creature (no cost paid yet). Then you decide whether it will be a creature or aura. At this point, you pay what cost it is, whether it's the mana to play it as a creature or the mana to bestow it. As the spell first goes onto the stack as a creature, it by-passes {Aurelia's Fury}.
It's become common practice from what i've seen to pay the mana for a spell before the announcement of the spell as a kind of shortcut. This is incorrect. You announce the spell first, place it on the stack, then pay the cost.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
i didnt see page 2 where they got an L3 to answer. thanks all. resolved!