Alright. I'm a pretty big rules junkie, but there's obviously stuff I don't know. I know that some spells target a player/permanent/whatever WHEN they become cast, howeeever, I've also hear of spells targeting a target as they RESOLVE. So here's my question:
How do I tell whether a spell targets as its cast or upon resolution? Examples would be ✨spectacular!✨ Thanks!
If a spell requires targets, the targets must be announced upon casting the spell.
601.2c (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=601.2c): The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says "Tap two target creatures," then the same creature can't be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.
Right, but say I targeted a creature to {Murder} and they returned it to their hand in response. That would fizzle the spell; right? I know there are spells that if that happens you can target a different creature for some reason. It came up on a judge test for the DCI, so that seems pretty legit.
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
Right, but say I targeted a creature to {Murder} and they returned it to their hand in response. That would fizzle the spell; right? I know there are spells that if that happens you can target a different creature for some reason. It came up on a judge test for the DCI, so that seems pretty legit.
If you target a creature with anything, and that creature is removed, the spell fizzles. Unless the spell or ability states otherwise, those are the rules.
The only way you'd get to choose another target is if you accidentally choose an illegal target without realizing it. In this case the game basically "rewinds" and to the point right before you cast the spell. Even so, that's not quite like the example you gave.
Do you recall the question from the test? Maybe that could help us figure things out.
Quote from: Keyeto on March 17, 2014, 06:04:33 PM
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
Right, but say I targeted a creature to {Murder} and they returned it to their hand in response. That would fizzle the spell; right? I know there are spells that if that happens you can target a different creature for some reason. It came up on a judge test for the DCI, so that seems pretty legit.
If you target a creature with anything, and that creature is removed, the spell fizzles. Unless the spell or ability states otherwise, those are the rules.
The only way you'd get to choose another target is if you accidentally choose an illegal target without realizing it. In this case the game basically "rewinds" and to the point right before you cast the spell. Even so, that's not quite like the example you gave.
Do you recall the question from the test? Maybe that could help us figure things out.
the spell doesnt fizzle if they're are multiple targets and one gets bounced right?
Actually it still fizzles, regardless if there is something else you could target...
A note about spells that do have multiple targets though, such as {common bond} targeting 2 creatures
608.2b (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=608.2b): If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. However, if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or ability's effect for which it is an illegal target can't perform any actions on that target or make that target perform any actions. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them.
TL DR: only the parts that aren't legal fizzle unless all instances are illegal in which the spell is countered on resolution
Quote from: Keyeto on March 17, 2014, 06:04:33 PM
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
Right, but say I targeted a creature to {Murder} and they returned it to their hand in response. That would fizzle the spell; right? I know there are spells that if that happens you can target a different creature for some reason. It came up on a judge test for the DCI, so that seems pretty legit.
If you target a creature with anything, and that creature is removed, the spell fizzles. Unless the spell or ability states otherwise, those are the rules.
The only way you'd get to choose another target is if you accidentally choose an illegal target without realizing it. In this case the game basically "rewinds" and to the point right before you cast the spell. Even so, that's not quite like the example you gave.
Do you recall the question from the test? Maybe that could help us figure things out.
That was my original understanding, but I've heard of new targets being chosen if bouncing takes place in certain circumstances for some reason... I wish I remembered the question. :/
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
My guess is it's something that forces an opponent to sacrifice a creature. Can't think go any spells off hand.
Quote from: Rass on March 17, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
My guess is it's something that forces an opponent to sacrifice a creature. Can't think go any spells off hand.
HOLY FLYING PIECES OF CRAP I THINK THAT'S IT. D:
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
Auras target before they enter the battlefield. That's why bestowing upon heroic creatures is so sweet. :D
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
Auras target before they enter the battlefield. That's why bestowing upon heroic creatures is so sweet. :D
{Zur, the enchanter}
{Bruna, light of allibaster}
Am I wrong? I thought these cards were ways to get around shroud...
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
Auras target before they enter the battlefield. That's why bestowing upon heroic creatures is so sweet. :D
{Zur, the enchanter}
{Bruna, light of allibaster}
Am I wrong? I thought these cards were ways to get around shroud...
That actually may be different! It's cool to think they get through shroud. That's be crazy!
Quote from: Rass on March 17, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
My guess is it's something that forces an opponent to sacrifice a creature. Can't think go any spells off hand.
{Devour Flesh} and {Celestial Flare} are two that I like. :D
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
Auras target before they enter the battlefield. That's why bestowing upon heroic creatures is so sweet. :D
{Zur, the enchanter}
{Bruna, light of allibaster}
Am I wrong? I thought these cards were ways to get around shroud...
They get around shroud. Aura
spells target, but the permanents themselves do not. So anything that places them onto the battlefield gets around shroud.
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on March 17, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
Auras and Zur/Bruna don't target
Auras target before they enter the battlefield. That's why bestowing upon heroic creatures is so sweet. :D
I totally misted your post there. You were talking about using Bruna or Zur. I've never heard of Zur before, so that must've thrown me off. Xp
Trying to answer the original question:
Quote from: MtJesus-Johnson on March 17, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
How do I tell whether a spell targets as its cast or upon resolution? Examples would be ✨spectacular!✨ Thanks!
If the spell says target, you have to choose the targets as they're being cast, and only another game interaction can change them. When someone gets to "target" something on resolution, they aren't really targeting according to the game mechanics. Usually they are choosing or placing. Some examples of this:
Target player sacrifices a creature. In this example a player is being targeted and upon resolution chooses a legal permanent to sacrifice.
Search your library for a creature and place it into the battlefield. You choose your card as you search your library.
Essentially, if you see the word target, you have to make the decision right away.