so i overheard a judgment being discussed, at a tournament recently, that i didn't understand. so first they were discussing {turn/burn} killing a god, like say an active {thassa, god of the sea} for reference. this part i understand. but then they mentioned that if the player uses {boros charm} for indestructability, not sure if before or after, that would somehow be different. something about layering. is this true?
ok what if {boros charm} already resolved in the turn.
Quote from: Noblellama on March 17, 2014, 02:18:47 AM
The creatures did not "gain" indestructible so it cannot be taken this way
The wording would have to be something like creatures you control gain ...... Or the creature would have to have it naturally for it to be taken this way.
The charm works because it states a fact, that they simply indestructible this turn. Not that any one of them have it by themselves
Actually, {Boros Charm} clearly states that all creatures you control
gain indestructible this turn.
So as of the cards presented there is no way to cast the spells in an order that will allow the god to live.
Since {turn//burn} is one spell you can't cast in the middle of the resolution to get the indestructible after all abilities lost and the 2 damage.
Ok. This is going to be quite long winded, but yes layers are involved. To quote the entire rule would take quite a lot of space, so I will just say that it is rule 613.01. It comes under the category 'Interaction of Continuous Effects'. When there are two or more continuous effects they are applied in a certain order. This is known as layers.
The first 5 layers are irrelevant to this example. Layer 6 is where the action happens. Layer 6 deals with effects that add or remove abilities. Therefore the 'turn' half of {turn//burn} would be put into effect first, forcing {Thassa} to lose all its abilities. Or the {boros charm} making Thassa gain indestructibility. Which ever one was resolved first has the earliest time stamp, therefore would be put into effect first. So if the charm was resolved first then Thassa would gain indestructibility, THEN lose all abilities. If Turn was resolved first then it has the earliest time stamp. So Thassa would have indestructibility and be unable to be destroyed by the burn half of turn//burn.
There is another sublayer to layer 6 that deals with setting the power and toughness of a creature to specific values, but in this case it is irrelevant as the important question is whether or not Thassa has indestructability.
I hope this clears everything up.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on March 17, 2014, 11:41:07 AM
Ok. This is going to be quite long winded, but yes layers are involved. To quote the entire rule would take quite a lot of space, so I will just say that it is rule 613.01. It comes under the category 'Interaction of Continuous Effects'. When there are two or more continuous effects they are applied in a certain order. This is known as layers.
The first 5 layers are irrelevant to this example. Layer 6 is where the action happens. Layer 6 deals with effects that add or remove abilities. Therefore the 'turn' half of {turn//burn} would be put into effect first, forcing {Thassa} to lose all its abilities. Or the {boros charm} making Thassa gain indestructibility. Which ever one was resolved first has the earliest time stamp, therefore would be put into effect first. So if the charm was resolved first then Thassa would gain indestructibility, THEN lose all abilities. If Turn was resolved first then it has the earliest time stamp. So Thassa would have indestructibility and be unable to be destroyed by the burn half of turn//burn.
There is another sublayer to layer 6 that deals with setting the power and toughness of a creature to specific values, but in this case it is irrelevant as the important question is whether or not Thassa has indestructability.
I hope this clears everything up.
But if turn has resolved so has burn. Fused cards count as a single spell on the stack but with the combined text of both halves. You can't make indestructible in between
That is 100% correct. I was so consumed with trying to explain layers that I didn't even notice that. I've had this issue with layers come up before so I have actually had experience with it. A better example would be if instead of trying to make Thassa indestructible you tried to boost its toughness with counters or something like {giant growth} to dodge the burn. In that situation then it makes no difference whether the giant growth was cast before turn//burn or after, as it is a layer that gets applied after the layer that sets power and toughness to a specific value. So in that case the Thassa would survive.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on March 17, 2014, 11:53:53 AM
That is 100% correct. I was so consumed with trying to explain layers that I didn't even notice that. I've had this issue with layers come up before so I have actually had experience with it. A better example would be if instead of trying to make Thassa indestructible you tried to boost its toughness with counters or something like {giant growth} to dodge the burn. In that situation then it makes no difference whether the giant growth was cast before turn//burn or after, as it is a layer that gets applied after the layer that sets power and toughness to a specific value. So in that case the Thassa would survive.
Thassa would still die. No matter how much you pump it up with stuff like {Giant Growth}, it will become a 0/2 wierd which will take 2 damage. Only if you add +1/+1 counters will it survive.
got some conflicting answers. wheres testset when you need him?
There's always {Gild}
Quote from: particle on March 17, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
got some conflicting answers. wheres testset when you need him?
I hope that I will suffice ;)
Basically, in no way will the god live (as giggleflat has already stated).
If {Turn//Burn} resolves first, it's obviously dead before gaining indestructible. If your {Boros Charm} resolves first, it still doesn't matter, as {Turn//Burn} will take away indestructible.
This used to be different, however. Before Indestructible was an ability, effects like {Turn//Burn} couldn't get past it when you used something like {Boros Charm}, as they became indestructible from an outside source. It wasn't their actual ability.
Now that it's an ability, it's something that's "gained" and can be taken away, with an effect like Turn.
Now as far as the whole {Giant Growth} thing goes. The creature will survive, as long as te growth resolves first.
If the growth does not, then it will be burned to death as a 0/1. If not, then we get to some fun layering rulings:
Layer 7b (changing P/T to specific numbers) comes first, even though the giant growth resolved first, this means that {Turn//Burn}'s P/T modification will APPLY first. This will turn the creature into a 0/1.
Next we have layer 7c, which are P/T modifying effects that don't set to specific numbers, such as our {Giant Growth} effect. The growth will pump them up, and allow them to survive the 2 damage from burn.
A bit confusing, as it seems like things are going off in between the resolution of {Turn//Burn}. But it's how the game checks the state of the creature, even if it seems a bit weird.
This is why people hate layer questions ;)
If something like giant growth is used and resolves before turn/burn the creature gets a temp boost of +3/+3 for the turn. This does not permanently modify the creatures P/T.
Turn/burn looks at turning the base of the creatures P/T to 0/2.
But since you had cast giant growth (not an ability or permanent modifier) and it was allowed to resolve BEFORE turn/burn
It allows the extra +3/+3 boost to sit on the creature
T/B turns your creatures BASE p/t to 0/2
But since GG was allowed to resolve, +3/+3 is added onto that base amount
burn happens to that 3/5 creature
2 damage does not kill it.
My reference:
Layers by wiz
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a
Look at grizzly bear example
Turn: Lose abilities: layer 6
Turn: creature is now 0/1 : layer 7b
GG: creature gains temp modifiers : layer 7c
Dammit keyoto!
As a reminder to those answering:
Please use reference to actual rulings so we can make these threads concise and not confusing
My head hurts.
Quote from: Noblellama on March 17, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
Thassa dies because keyoto said so, if anyone argues B.S. A long monologue about layers 6b and 7c until they glaze over
Actually, he stated it lived. Because of the layering.
Quote from: Keyeto on March 17, 2014, 01:56:51 PM
Now as far as the whole {Giant Growth} thing goes. The creature will survive, as long as te growth resolves first.
If the growth does not, then it will be burned to death as a 0/1. If not, then we get to some fun layering rulings:
Layer 7b (changing P/T to specific numbers) comes first, even though the giant growth resolved first, this means that {Turn//Burn}'s P/T modification will APPLY first. This will turn the creature into a 0/1.
Next we have layer 7c, which are P/T modifying effects that don't set to specific numbers, such as our {Giant Growth} effect. The growth will pump them up, and allow them to survive the 2 damage from burn.
A bit confusing, as it seems like things are going off in between the resolution of {Turn//Burn}. But it's how the game checks the state of the creature, even if it seems a bit weird.
This is why people hate layer questions ;)
I said thassa would live. Keyoto said thassa lives as long as giant growth resolved first. Great minds think alike right ;)
I was just pointing out that it doesn't matter if {giant growth} was cast first and resolves before turn//burn is even cast, or if it is put on the stack afterwards and resolves first. The layering means its effects are always applied last.
Quote from: Noblellama on March 17, 2014, 07:00:03 PM
To clarify, thassa dies to turn/burn
Which was the initial question, giant growth simply got thrown in the mess.