I read an old article on the modern ban list. I think it was from 2012. Anyways at the end it had a small paragraph saying how a reprint of {Force of Will} in standard wouldn't change much.
How do you guys feel about this? Like obviously it's the best Counterspell in Magic but what's there to counter in standard/modern on T1? It's a legacy staple bc of all the T1 combo decks but in slower formats would it really have a huge impact?
MaRo has said many times on his tumblr that none of the developers would ever put FoW in standard or modern. :( Legacy players can still dream, though
Quote from: abstractApathist on February 06, 2014, 04:00:21 PM
MaRo has said many times on his tumblr that none of the developers would ever put FoW in standard or modern. :( Legacy players can still dream, though
Dang! But why? I can't see it being op in standard bc it's just not good enough value. Like sure it's by far the best Counterspell in Legacy but who cares about any standard T1 play? Lastly you 2 for one yourself! AND lose a life! But that's just me hoping to get cheaper fows :(
you understand {force of will} works on other turns than just turn 1, right?
Quote from: particle on February 06, 2014, 04:05:03 PM
you understand {force of will} works on other turns than just turn 1, right?
Lol yes I do. I guess I just read the article and hoped that one day I could afford a FoW and play it. Ill keep dreaming :)
Quote from: Mattao19 on February 06, 2014, 04:06:53 PM
Quote from: particle on February 06, 2014, 04:05:03 PM
you understand {force of will} works on other turns than just turn 1, right?
Lol yes I do. I guess I just read the article and hoped that one day I could afford a FoW and play it. Ill keep dreaming :)
its all about tempo and beats. You cast {force of will} for nothing. Then you cast another instant spell. Suddenly, your putting a lot of pressure on the opponent, on there turn no less. Also, blue has draw and can easily make up for "two-for-one'ing itself". On top of that, if you discard a card with flashback, you can cast it from your graveyard anyway. So {force of will} probably won't get reprinted any time soon if at all. They would need to find ways to deal with it first. Like that one card in future sight
Quote from: Birdbrain on February 06, 2014, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on February 06, 2014, 04:06:53 PM
Quote from: particle on February 06, 2014, 04:05:03 PM
you understand {force of will} works on other turns than just turn 1, right?
Lol yes I do. I guess I just read the article and hoped that one day I could afford a FoW and play it. Ill keep dreaming :)
its all about tempo and beats. You cast {force of will} for nothing. Then you cast another instant spell. Suddenly, your putting a lot of pressure on the opponent, on there turn no less. Also, blue has draw and can easily make up for "two-for-one'ing itself". On top of that, if you discard a card with flashback, you can cast it from your graveyard anyway. So {force of will} probably won't get reprinted any time soon if at all. They would need to find ways to deal with it first. Like that one card in future sight
you know fow makes you exile a blue card, not discard right?
^^^
My mistake
They banned {Mental Misstep} in Modern, they won't give us {Force of Will} in Modern and Standard.
Force is an interesting card, I think the best way to describe it that I have heard is that it's the worst answer, but it's the answer for everything.
It really would not be that powerful in standard or modern. Nothing is powerful enough in standard to merit the 2 for 1.
In modern, force still isn't good because blue has no good cantrips like {Brainstorm} or {Ponder} to make up for it, and there is no turn 1 boogie man anyway. Casting force is usually a terrible feeling unless you are using it to not die right then and there, because that card disadvantage will bury you in the long run.
{Misthollow Griffin} exists to combo with {Food Chain}. You don't include specific cards to plan to pitch to FoW, because then you need 2 different cards in your hand at the same time to do it. And it's a dead card any other time.
FoW will never be reprinted into Standard. It will make blue a million times more oppressive.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on February 06, 2014, 11:21:52 PM
Force is an interesting card, I think the best way to describe it that I have heard is that it's the worst answer, but it's the answer for everything.
It really would not be that powerful in standard or modern. Nothing is powerful enough in standard to merit the 2 for 1.
In modern, force still isn't good because blue has no good cantrips like {Brainstorm} or {Ponder} to make up for it, and there is no turn 1 boogie man anyway. Casting force is usually a terrible feeling unless you are using it to not die right then and there, because that card disadvantage will bury you in the long run.
You focus on the fact that force of will 2-for-1s the user, which is why it would not be broken in modern or standard. But its main appeal is the fact that you can tap out and still counter something, which is broken in all formats. You say that nothing in standard is worth using force of will on because of the card disadvantage. But let me ask you, would you rather lose 2 cards for their 1 card, or keep your two cards and let them resolve a massive draw spell, like {Sphinx's Revelation}? You bring up some fine points but I think you might be underestimating the value of a tempo play (tapping out for a spell and still being able to counter something), and overestimating card advantage (2-for-1s are never good in theory, but sometimes it is worth it!).
Since you also brought up Sphinx's Rev, I'd like to point out that a popular play would be tapping out for a Rev I response to a spell, then Forcing something. THAT in and of itself allows you to draw about 3 more cards and gain 3 more life. If you factor FoW into that, you essentially gain 2 more life and draw 1 more card.
what would you use instead of {force of will} in legacy for budget concerns? reason I'm asking is because I have everything i need now for Legacy folk, minus 2 TTN and the 4 FoW... and I really don't feel like shelling out 200+ for a playset of FoW...
Quote from: Testset on February 07, 2014, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on February 07, 2014, 06:54:43 PM
what would you use instead of {force of will} in legacy for budget concerns? reason I'm asking is because I have everything i need now for Legacy folk, minus 2 TTN and the 4 FoW... and I really don't feel like shelling out 200+ for a playset of FoW...
{Foil}
{Mental Misstep}
{Mindbreak Trap}
{Disrupting Shoal}
although the shoal forces you to play tempo right?
Quote from: Testset on February 07, 2014, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on February 07, 2014, 06:54:43 PM
what would you use instead of {force of will} in legacy for budget concerns? reason I'm asking is because I have everything i need now for Legacy folk, minus 2 TTN and the 4 FoW... and I really don't feel like shelling out 200+ for a playset of FoW...
{Foil}
{Mental Misstep}
{Mindbreak Trap}
{Disrupting Shoal}
{Mental Misstep} is not legal in legacy.
The simple answer is that there isn't really a good substitute for force. {Disrupting Shoal} is kind of close, but the CMC thing might make it dead to what you need to "force".
Saying FoW is bad in Modern is just ridiculous. {Disrupting Shoal} is an extremely neutered FoW and is still really good.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on February 07, 2014, 09:57:52 PM
Saying FoW is bad in Modern is just ridiculous. {Disrupting Shoal} is an extremely neutered FoW and is still really good.
That card has been played in one deck (the woo delver thing) that has posted 0 results at any large modern event.