If I were to attack with say, a {Dreg mangler} that had {Ordeal of Heliod} on it and it just got a third counter, and then my opponent uses {Simic charm} to return it to my hand, what happens? Does the effect of the ordeal go off because the trigger already happened, or because it isn't on a creature anymore, it doesn't go off?
Quote from: CrackaLacka on December 08, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
If I were to attack with say, a {Dreg mangler} that had {Ordeal of Heliod} on it and it just got a third counter, and then my opponent uses {Simic charm} to return it to my hand, what happens? Does the effect of the ordeal go off because the trigger already happened, or because it isn't on a creature anymore, it doesn't go off?
If it got it's third counter you would sacrifice the ordeal and the life gain goes on the stack. They bounce so that spell goes on top. With the way way I'm reading ordeal the life gain has nothig to do with the mangler just the sac, so the stack would begin to resolve, ur still a legal target for the life gain, so my opinion says you get the life.
However if he bounced before the counter got put on the creature then no life gain. Sounds like he played his charm at the wrong time.
Quote from: Butch1977 on December 08, 2013, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: CrackaLacka on December 08, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
If I were to attack with say, a {Dreg mangler} that had {Ordeal of Heliod} on it and it just got a third counter, and then my opponent uses {Simic charm} to return it to my hand, what happens? Does the effect of the ordeal go off because the trigger already happened, or because it isn't on a creature anymore, it doesn't go off?
If it got it's third counter you would sacrifice the ordeal and the life gain goes on the stack. They bounce so that spell goes on top. With the way way I'm reading ordeal the life gain has nothig to do with the mangler just the sac, so the stack would begin to resolve, ur still a legal target for the life gain, so my opinion says you get the life.
However if he bounced before the counter got put on the creature then no life gain. Sounds like he played his charm at the wrong time.
He plays the charm in response to the attack. Does anything change?
Quote from: CrackaLacka on December 08, 2013, 11:31:04 AM
Quote from: Butch1977 on December 08, 2013, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: CrackaLacka on December 08, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
If I were to attack with say, a {Dreg mangler} that had {Ordeal of Heliod} on it and it just got a third counter, and then my opponent uses {Simic charm} to return it to my hand, what happens? Does the effect of the ordeal go off because the trigger already happened, or because it isn't on a creature anymore, it doesn't go off?
If it got it's third counter you would sacrifice the ordeal and the life gain goes on the stack. They bounce so that spell goes on top. With the way way I'm reading ordeal the life gain has nothig to do with the mangler just the sac, so the stack would begin to resolve, ur still a legal target for the life gain, so my opinion says you get the life.
However if he bounced before the counter got put on the creature then no life gain. Sounds like he played his charm at the wrong time.
He plays the charm in response to the attack. Does anything change?
Yes it does, u attack the ordeal's ability goes on the stack, then he bounces with the charm so that goes on top of ordeal. Resolve top to bottom, mangler is bounced before the third counter hits it, so u couldnt sac the ordeal.
You may wait for kaleo or gorzo to verify, but that's what happens in my understanding of the stack.
Butch sounds correct to me :)
This is all assuming, of course, that the attacking creature is gaining it's third counter from the ordeal's trigger from attacking. Since the counter adding, check for 3, and sacrifice for benefit are all part of the same triggered ability, there's no point between each part of the ability that an opponent (or even yourself) can respond. Once it starts to resolve (get a 3rd counter), no player will get priority to cast an instant until after the ordeal is already sacrificed and it's benefit (gain 10 life for Heliod's in this case) is sitting pretty on the stack.
Quote from: Gorzo on December 08, 2013, 04:06:52 PM
Butch sounds correct to me :)
This is all assuming, of course, that the attacking creature is gaining it's third counter from the ordeal's trigger from attacking. Since the counter adding, check for 3, and sacrifice for benefit are all part of the same triggered ability, there's no point between each part of the ability that an opponent (or even yourself) can respond. Once it starts to resolve (get a 3rd counter), no player will get priority to cast an instant until after the ordeal is already sacrificed and it's benefit (gain 10 life for Heliod's in this case) is sitting pretty on the stack.
Ok so let's see if I got this right. If my opponent responds to my attack with {Simic charm}, ordeal doesn't go off. If no response to the attack, he doesn't gain priority until after the ordeal goes off.
You got it! He has to charm you before attackers are declared.
If you sacrifice an ordeal for any reason other than it's own ability you don't get its benefits do you? for example if you sacrificed it to the Release half of {Catch // Release} , it wouldn't go off, right?
Quote from: Bop on December 09, 2013, 10:28:04 AM
If you sacrifice an ordeal for any reason other than it's own ability you don't get its benefits do you? for example if you sacrificed it to the Release half of {Catch // Release} , it wouldn't go off, right?
Correct. It has to be sacrificed via its own effect to get the bonus.
Quote from: Bop on December 09, 2013, 10:28:04 AM
If you sacrifice an ordeal for any reason other than it's own ability you don't get its benefits do you? for example if you sacrificed it to the Release half of {Catch // Release} , it wouldn't go off, right?
Yes, you would still get the effect.
From the rulings on the cards:
Quote9/15/2013 If you sacrifice the Ordeal in some other way, its last ability will trigger.