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Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 10:44:20 AM

Title: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 10:44:20 AM
{Favored Hoplite} and {Lightning Strike}

Say I have a FH in play and I cast {Titanic Strength} his heroic triggers and in response to the cast they LS my FH my FH lives bc his heroic triggers and I prevent all damage dealt to it right?
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: DimirOverlord1300 on November 03, 2013, 10:50:48 AM
No lightning strike resolves first and kills it
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 10:54:58 AM
No but doesn't Heroic trigger bc it's when a spell targets a creature so it's cast heroic triggers then prevents damage then prevents damage?
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: DimirOverlord1300 on November 03, 2013, 10:58:01 AM
It's only a spell you control
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 11:01:12 AM
Ya the titanic strength is mine
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: DimirOverlord1300 on November 03, 2013, 11:03:05 AM
The stack order would go lightning, fh, titans strength. The lightning resolves first, and kills the Hoplite before heroic or titans strength triggers
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 11:05:28 AM
Really?
Last time let me explain the order:
1. I cast {Titaninc Strength} on my FH
2. Opponent plays {Lightning Strike} on it
3. How does the stack go?
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: DimirOverlord1300 on November 03, 2013, 11:13:37 AM
You cast titans strength, then heroic triggers, then lightning strike. The stack resolves in reverse order, so ls resolves first, killing the Hoplite before heroic resolves
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 11:14:45 AM
Ok thanks
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 03, 2013, 02:49:10 PM
Your hoplite survives

Nothing in the stack even needs to resolve, hoplite just needs to be targeted and boom, prevent damage
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 02:49:46 PM
That's what I thought too ok thanks
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 03, 2013, 02:51:30 PM
Further clarification from MtG Salvation


"Heroic abilities will resolve before the spell that caused them to trigger."
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 02:52:45 PM
Ok sweet thanks bud
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Wackaman9001 on November 03, 2013, 02:57:04 PM
Hoplite dies. When you cast the strength, heroic goes on the stack, and then your opponent has the chance to cast spells. They cast the strike, pass priority, and then you pass too. Strike resolves, killing hoplite. Hoplite trigger tries to fire but fails, and same for the strength, due to lack of target
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 03, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Again, "Heroic abilities will resolve before the spell that caused them to trigger." Which includes everything else in the stack.

The stack can go on for days, Nothing in the stack needs to resolve before Hoplite gets to prevent all his damage.

Heroic gets triggered by the legal targeting, not the resolution, of Titan's Strength.

You could counter a spell, but unless you played something like Silence, there's nothing you can do to prevent someone from casting and targeting to immediately activate their card's heroic ability.

Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Wackaman9001 on November 03, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
So are you trying to say heroic doesn't use the stack? It only triggers from the controllers spell. The strike goes on the stack immediately after, so it resolves first. Heroic still resolves before the buff that triggered it
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: DimirOverlord1300 on November 03, 2013, 03:20:24 PM
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/09/heroic-triggers-resolve-before-the-spell/
Theres a section on this page that gives you the rundown on the stack with heroic. Heroic does go on the stack, on top of the spell that triggered it. Then after heroic the ls goes on, and it resolves first killing the creature before heroic
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 03, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
Well I'll be damned...

I guess the word "target" really confused me. Like you can't prevent someone from targeting, you know?

+1 for you guys correcting me.
That's what this board is for :D
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Wackaman9001 on November 03, 2013, 03:32:51 PM
Cool, sorry if I seemed dickish about this :)
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 03, 2013, 03:34:47 PM
Naw man, you're doing me a favor :)
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 12:44:01 AM
It appears to be
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Bop on November 04, 2013, 02:48:35 PM
Is that order of the stack set by the game? Or could it be in a different order depending on how players announced their intentions? Like If my opponent hastily announces his response to my casting before I have the chance to announce the heroic trigger...? As I'm writing this out I think i can answer it myself but I would enjoy a confirmation.
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:08:05 PM
The Heroic being a direct result of your casting means nothing can be played in between your spell on the stack and the trigger.

Your opponent also can't play anything until you've passed priority to them
116.3c (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=116.3c): If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 04, 2013, 03:09:09 PM
Quote from: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:08:05 PM
The Heroic being a direct result of your casting means nothing can be played in between your spell on the stack and the trigger.

Your opponent also can't play anything until you've passed priority to them

Doesn't that mean that the Hoplite lives?
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Bop on November 04, 2013, 03:10:36 PM
For the stack to resolve both players must pass priority
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:11:13 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 04, 2013, 03:09:09 PM
Quote from: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:08:05 PM
The Heroic being a direct result of your casting means nothing can be played in between your spell on the stack and the trigger.

Your opponent also can't play anything until you've passed priority to them

Doesn't that mean that the Hoplite lives?
I'm saying the stack can't go (for example)

Top
Heroic Trigger
Lightning Strike
Spell that triggered Heroic
Bottom
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Lyriczulu on November 04, 2013, 03:12:04 PM
Before a spell/trigger can resolve priority must be passed successively with no further spells/triggers added to the stack. So the heroic trigger will not resolve before your opponent has a chance to cast {Lightning Strike}
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Kaleo42 on November 04, 2013, 03:12:26 PM
In order to cast a spell or activate an ability a player has to have priority. Last fnm I got to teach someone about this and he was very annoyed. He attempted to destroy my {fleecemane lion} and my {elspeth sun's champion} literally the second they entered play. I told him he does not have prioirty continued with my turn and annouced his next chance to do something.

Active player (who's turn it is) has prioirty unless it's the blockers step. Non active player may only respond to things on the stack or phase/step changes.

In order for any player to recieve priority state base must be checked. This i when creatures die do to damage or no toughness, players lose do to no life or having drawn from no library, and when triggers are placed on the stack.

You cast your spell
State base is checked before you recieve priority again
Trigger added to the stack
You get priority
You want your spell to resolve so you pass priority
State base check
They have priority
They cast a spell
State base check
They have priority
They pass it backj
State basse check
You pass prioirty back
State base check
Two consecutive priority passes forces the top of the stack to resolve
State check
They have prioity
Pass it back
State check
You pass
State check
Resolve trigger
State check
They have priority
They pass
State check
You pass
State check
Your spell resolves
State check
You retain priority because it is your turn.

Replace resolve with fizzel if there is no longer a valid target.
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:17:41 PM
Yeah, this suggested problem:
Quote from: Bop on November 04, 2013, 02:48:35 PM
If my opponent hastily announces his response to my casting before I have the chance to announce the heroic trigger...?
cannot happen because your opponent would not have priority between you casting the spell and the Heroic trigger going on the stack right on top of the spell
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 04, 2013, 03:45:32 PM
Ok so my Fav. Hoplite lives? (Sorry I'm getting confused)
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Kaleo42 on November 04, 2013, 03:57:01 PM
Hoplite dies. Strike resolves first because it was the last thing on the stack.
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Steerpike on November 04, 2013, 03:57:50 PM
Edit: Kaleo ninja'd me
No, the stack looking like

Top
Lightning Strike
Heroic Trigger
Titan's Strength
Bottom

means he'll be dead.
I was explaining to Bop that he wouldn't encounter trouble with a "hasty" opponent casting Lightning Strike before the Heroic trigger but after the Titan's Strength because his opponent wouldn't have priority between those two things. Opponent waits to get priority, burns Hoplite anyway with his spell on the top of the stack, Heroic trigger fizzles, and Robert's your father's brother.
Title: Re: Favored Hoplite
Post by: Mattao19 on November 04, 2013, 03:59:11 PM
Ok thanks a lot guys! :)