Someone had to bring this up :)
Thoughts? For/Against? What do you think the outcome will be for the United States, both as a whole, as well as for each individual citizen? Etc.....
Well if you don't get insurance. You're gonna get a fine.
So there's that.
Quote from: Muggywuggy on October 30, 2013, 01:03:59 PM
Well if you don't get insurance. You're gonna get a fine.
So there's that.
True, but to some, the fine may be worth it to give him/her the option of opting out. Who knows?
My employer is cutting spouses due to increased rates. From $120 to $400 for my wife. "Affordable."
No congressman really seeks to destroy American lives, they're just incredibly short sighted as far as I can tell.
There'll be more than 2 years of it being active, hopefully that's enough time for people to support its repeal.
I found it very entertaining, while watching the News last night, when the reporter was walking around the streets of New York asking people which healthcare plan they were for: the Affordable Healthcare Act or Obamacare.
Most people either didn't know the difference, or they just said "no comment/I haven't educated myself on either enough to answer". And then, instead of being entertained, I was saddened....
Quote from: CbStrad on October 30, 2013, 01:29:33 PM
Health insurance should stay privatized. Socializing it removes the motivation for many doctors to do well; they'll get paid the same either way since the government employs them. Essentially, we'd be dealing with more military doctors, and no one wants to deal with that kind of carelessness.
Plus, the bill itself is a bastardization of a House Resolution originally intended to help veterans buy a house after their tours. The Senate just erased the original resolution and rewrote the healthcare bill in its place using House stationery.
American .politics. at their finest
I have met some military doctors that actually knew and did their jobs, and did it well. I have met others that really just didn't care. As long as someone getting paid a salary, you will run into people like that. You will have the ones that really care about their job, and you will have the ones that don't.
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 30, 2013, 04:25:42 PM
...yeah, screw all those people without insurance. Has anyone actually looked at other models for this plan? I'm all for it.
We would all love to guarantee healthcare for those who need it as soon as we are capable of paying for it and aren't going to fine people for not having it.
^This....
Quote from: CbStrad on October 30, 2013, 04:31:47 PM
Idealism has no place in applied .politics.
And this ;)
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
It's the congress, as far as my college-professor father with 3 masters, 2 PhDs, etc. (All that means is he's a reliable source. I'm not bragging.) But yeah, it's a bad move. And @ladygrixis' is that another new profile picture?
Lol yeessss
Quote from: CbStrad on October 30, 2013, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 30, 2013, 04:25:42 PM
...yeah, screw all those people without insurance. Has anyone actually looked at other models for this plan? I'm all for it.
If it were its own thing, I'd have less of an issue with it (cuz if good men and women are going out to fight and die for us, I'd rather they be able to have a home when they get back instead of this financial travesty)
And as for cheap healthcare, I'm all for it, but it doesn't work this way all the time. It works in places like Switzerland, but it's a small enough nation to be efficient. Then you have Canada where getting a doctor visit can be time-consuming enough to be almost pointless in the end
What I mean is, it sounds good and all, but in practice it's terrible. Idealism has no place in applied .politics.
I've never had trouble getting a doctor when I needed it (I'm in Canada) :) you can easily go to a walk in clinic for something simple. Something a little more serious and you can schedule an appointment with a family doctor and the wait still isn't too bad, a couple days maybe. Emergencies aren't too bad of a wait either I got in immediately when I sliced my finger to the bone at my old job lol :) I've never had a problem with timing :P
^^
I work in medicine and I can tell you this much, our current system is broken. ACA is a start but is not the answer. What bothers me is that a number of other countries have done this and have excelled. They have increased the overall health of their citizens and done so in a cost effective manner. I just wonder why we simply didn't model from their already proven programs. Guess it's just the "We're American dang it!" mentality of having to do it our own way.
Gonna say it again, proud to be Canadian ;)
Quote from: S717 on October 30, 2013, 08:45:15 PM
Gonna say it again, proud to be Canadian ;)
100% agree but I broke my wrist a few years ago and waited (no lie) 8 hours to get a cast idk how long it takes in the US but 8 hours is so long! (Especially with a broken wrist 😢)
Also there's the issue in Canada that yes we are covered but on average how many times do you visit the hospital a year? For me I haven't visited one in 3 years, yet my family still pays for a lot of taxes that fund it. So in a way it's a waste of money for me.
But I like the system bc there's really nothing better than to know that (God forbid) something happens you always have coverage.
I had the misfortune to have a fish hook embedded in my leg one day. Luckily the hospital I went to was efficient enough to get me in and out in around 3 hours. For a center city philladelphia hospital that is pretty awesome. I even managed to work an 8 hour shift the same day.
Quote from: Aladormax on October 30, 2013, 09:29:09 PM
I had the misfortune to have a fish hook embedded in my leg one day. Luckily the hospital I went to was efficient enough to get me in and out in around 3 hours. For a center city philladelphia hospital that is pretty awesome. I even managed to work an 8 hour shift the same day.
OUCH!! That'd hurt so much! But 3 hours isn't that kind of long for a fish hook?
Wait until you see the fish... In all seriousness it was a size 4 hook that was not bleeding profusely and I was actively with the doctor after 30 minutes. The other 2.5 hours were x-rays surgery and an explanation of what happened that led into her giving me some explanation as to how they were getting it out.
Quote from: Mattao19 on October 30, 2013, 09:18:24 PM
Quote from: S717 on October 30, 2013, 08:45:15 PM
Gonna say it again, proud to be Canadian ;)
100% agree but I broke my wrist a few years ago and waited (no lie) 8 hours to get a cast idk how long it takes in the US but 8 hours is so long! (Especially with a broken wrist 😢)
Also there's the issue in Canada that yes we are covered but on average how many times do you visit the hospital a year? For me I haven't visited one in 3 years, yet my family still pays for a lot of taxes that fund it. So in a way it's a waste of money for me.
But I like the system bc there's really nothing better than to know that (God forbid) something happens you always have coverage.
Yeah I've spent my fair share of time in an ER waiting room for stuff like this, but I'm happy that I just don't need to worry about it beyond that. I also don't mind paying taxes for that kind of thing since it comes with living in a socialist system, and being able to opt-out would totally ruin it. I do think we should implement a 2-tier system though.
Same I think a 2-tiered system would be nice. But as I said I'm happy with our system. I just HATE the waiting times >:(
Mandatory insurance of any kind is immoral. It would be illegal under iMtG law.
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
My brother-in-law and sister-in-law lived in France for about 5 years due to work. They had the option of buying into the healthcare system over there. Only one got coverage, due to the "taxes being too high" for their taste. Also, under the French health care system, if your pregnant and want to deliver in a hospital, you have to register for it by your sixth month. Otherwise, you'll have to find a midwife.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AMI'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
Public healthcare is crap, it has been proven over and over again in all of the above countries. We do not need the US to prove it is crap, we already know it.
Quote from: Piotr on October 31, 2013, 08:23:24 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AMI'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
Public healthcare is crap, it has been proven over and over again in all of the above countries. We do not need the US to prove it is crap, we already know it.
Thank you.
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 31, 2013, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 31, 2013, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
My point was, surely making millions of Americans lose their healthcare was a higher crime, because it could keep them from potentially getting life saving treatment, and dying. So obama's probably killed a lot of people. I know Obama didn't just sign it into law. However, he was the one pushing for it, and it was his idea, and when it came to him, he didn't repeal it. It's unconstitutional, and he passed it.
I think we have a good enough case.
In your list of company's with public healthcare, everyone has worse economy's except for china. And that's just because they have like a billion people.
They have smaller economies yet receive better care per several reliable third party reports.
I call a lie on this. Better in what aspect? NHS in UK has told my 3 years old daughter that her allergy to house mite is incurable. It is curable in the US and in Switzerland, where one has to pay for their medical services, in general. I have been to Lugano with 2 years old and I paid for the 'pleasure'.
Quote from: Taysby on October 31, 2013, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
My point was, surely making millions of Americans lose their healthcare was a higher crime, because it could keep them from potentially getting life saving treatment, and dying. So obama's probably killed a lot of people. I know Obama didn't just sign it into law. However, he was the one pushing for it, and it was his idea, and when it came to him, he didn't repeal it. It's unconstitutional, and he passed it.
I think we have a good enough case.
In your list of company's with public healthcare, everyone has worse economy's except for china. And that's just because they have like a billion people.
It's not unconstitutional, there was a supreme court case and the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act was upheld as a constitutional revenue law. The act merely mandates that each citizen purchases health care, not that you purchase it through the government. How is the law making millions lose their insurance?
I'd also recommend that you read "Bitter Pill", its an article that was featured in Time Magazine, and its talks about the health care system in America. It reveals just how big a business health care is and shows how some things are marked up as much as 10000% by hospitals and doctors. The article also briefly discusses how Medi-care, Medi-caid and other government provided insurances work by paying hospitals and doctors realistic prices as opposed to the ridiculousness ones they charge individuals. Because the government is such a large customer, they are able to wield their business as they please, forcing hospitals to take some profit over none.
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 31, 2013, 06:57:13 PM
Quote from: Taysby on October 31, 2013, 06:48:09 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Taysby on October 31, 2013, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
My point was, surely making millions of Americans lose their healthcare was a higher crime, because it could keep them from potentially getting life saving treatment, and dying. So obama's probably killed a lot of people. I know Obama didn't just sign it into law. However, he was the one pushing for it, and it was his idea, and when it came to him, he didn't repeal it. It's unconstitutional, and he passed it.
I think we have a good enough case.
In your list of company's with public healthcare, everyone has worse economy's except for china. And that's just because they have like a billion people.
It's not unconstitutional, there was a supreme court case and the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act was upheld as a constitutional revenue law. The act merely mandates that each citizen purchases health care, not that you purchase it through the government. How is the law making millions lose their insurance?
I'd also recommend that you read "Bitter Pill", its an article that was featured in Time Magazine, and its talks about the health care system in America. It reveals just how big a business health care is and shows how some things are marked up as much as 10000% by hospitals and doctors. The article also briefly discusses how Medi-care, Medi-caid and other government provided insurances work by paying hospitals and doctors realistic prices as opposed to the ridiculousness ones they charge individuals. Because the government is such a large customer, they are able to wield their business as they please, forcing hospitals to take some profit over none.
Just because the supreme court declares something doesn't make it or make it not constitutional. Look at alcohol. at one point it was unconstitutional. not anymore.
It makes millions lose health insurance becuase obama care increases the amount of regulation among insurance companys and the plans lose grandfather status. I didn't completly understand the grandfather status, except for the fact that it makes policys more expensive. If anyone would educate me on that, I would appreciate it. here is a link http://www.infowars.com/rate-shock-obamacare-causing-539-increase-in-health-insurance-costs-for-texans-see-proof/ Either, their rates go through the roof to something no one could afford, or they get dropped because it's too expensive. Obama knew that would happen when he signed it into law. He delibrately hurt millions of americans. There has to be something illegal about that.
also, care from obama care is way too expensive for many people, so it doesn't even do what it was designed to do. http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/14/obamacares-website-is-crashing-because-it-doesnt-want-you-to-know-health-plans-true-costs/ http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-navigator-hasnt-signed-anyone-because-its-too-expensive_765629.html
Also with the high costs of health care right now. Those 10000% increases seem like they are just being greedy little *******s. However, do you have any idea how much they spend on R&D for those pills? Sometimes they spend millions and millions of dollars to try and develop those medications. They have that much price increase to try and get their money back, and then after 10 years, a generic comes out for $10. Without that big investment, many life saving medications would never be developed. If they didn't try and make their money back, they would go out of business. Sure it is a lot, but it's only fair to let them get their money back. they are saving lives!
...Yes the Supreme Court is in fact the final say on the constitutional status of laws save for an amendment. So either you pass an amendment outlawing government health care (and then you can't impeach Obama as it's ex post facto) or you accept their ruling.
...or you complain about it, try to repeal it (I know we are at least at 42 times) and then shut down the government and try to debate it in a conference committee, which is directly against the Constitution (because as we all know, the best way to stop something that is possible unconstitutional is to clearly and blatantly violate the Constitution).
The size of these quotes right now...
Quote from: Steerpike on October 31, 2013, 08:17:29 PM
The size of these quotes right now...
You should have seen the quote chains in Fun Stuff-->Whoever gets the last post wins.
This thread is starting to look like quote wars :|
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 31, 2013, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: Piotr on October 31, 2013, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: ConanEdo on October 31, 2013, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 31, 2013, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 31, 2013, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: Taysby on October 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
The gov knew when they passed it into law, that it would make tens of millions of Americans lose their healthcare. That's them saying "screw you America!" I think something needs to be done about that president. Surely there has to be some way we can impeach him for making Americans lose heir healthcare.
Something needs to be done about people calling to impeach Obama, YOU CAN'T, SO WHY WASTE YOUR TIME. In America, you can not impeach the president unless they have committed a crime, "I don't like him" isn't reason enough. In writing, Article II, Section Four, states that cases of impeachment may be undertaken only for "treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors." I would also like to point out that the president CAN'T MAKE LAWS. The House of Representatives and the Senate both have to pass the law by a simple majority and then have it either be signed into law by the president or be left unsigned for 10 business days. If the president vetos it, he can be overridden by a 2/3 majority.
I'd also like to point out that the Patient Protection and Affordable Health Care Act has barely even started to take effect, let's wait at least a year until we judge it. If this is so bad, why do so many countries have public healthcare? A list includes: Algeria, Egypt, Ghana, Libya, Mauritius, Morocco, South Africa, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Tunisia, Albania, Austria, Andorra, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, the United Kingdom.....
As for the fine, this law is a revenue law, essentially a tax. If you don't follow the law, you pay the tax. Its simple enough.
My point was, surely making millions of Americans lose their healthcare was a higher crime, because it could keep them from potentially getting life saving treatment, and dying. So obama's probably killed a lot of people. I know Obama didn't just sign it into law. However, he was the one pushing for it, and it was his idea, and when it came to him, he didn't repeal it. It's unconstitutional, and he passed it.
I think we have a good enough case.
In your list of company's with public healthcare, everyone has worse economy's except for china. And that's just because they have like a billion people.
They have smaller economies yet receive better care per several reliable third party reports.
I call a lie on this. Better in what aspect? NHS in UK has told my 3 years old daughter that her allergy to house mite is incurable. It is curable in the US and in Switzerland, where one has to pay for their medical services, in general. I have been to Lugano with 2 years old and I paid for the 'pleasure'.
You could have just had a crap doctor, anecdotal evidence isn't the greatest of evidence.
A disease which is curable in US is not curable in UK because UK runs a public crappy healthcare which does not offer the cure and advises the patients that their condition is incurable. You call that anecdotal evidence? I call you liar.
Quote from: Taysby on November 01, 2013, 02:14:44 PM
Fox News just released the numbers on the health care. As of oct 26, (I believe) only like 250 people got health care. It was too expensive for everyone else. And from the regulations it put on private businesses, millions lost their health care. And Obama knew that would happen... If that doesn't say tyrant, I don't know what will.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE99U16R20131101?irpc=932
Not true, 248 were signed up on October 3 according to the reuter's article.
One of the mystifying things I have seen I the debate over the impact of the law is that 1 million people in a country of over 300 Million people isn't actually a big portion of the population, in fact it's downright trivial.
It has also been noted that some of the dropped policies were because they did not provide the minimum coverage required by the Affordable Care Act, which doesn't sound like a negative to me.
And for the record, the affordable care act is not creating nationalized insurance, it is expanding Medicaid coverage for some, but that was an existing program. A vast majority are using private insurance, so comparing this to socialized medicine has little point in my opinion.
Quote from: CbStrad on November 01, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
At least we don't have to deal with him once his term is up, and from what I've heard his support is plummeting because of this
Hillary 2016 : )
I have to question your moral integrity if you claim that depriving a million people of healthcare is trivial.
Quote from: Piotr on November 02, 2013, 06:07:02 AM
I have to question your moral integrity if you claim that depriving a million people of healthcare is trivial.
It is not depriving them of health care, it means they have to get a different policy.
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it? I think obviously biased news sources (*cough* Fox *cough*) should decide which lie (through exaggeration and creative accounting) they feel would convince the most people instead of spreading two conflicting ones... Oh, and no one use the "because insurance costs so much" argument because if that were true, insurance companies would lose money and would be out of business. And yes, Obamacare will cover many who would usually not afford coverage because of age, health, ect. but many of those people are already covered under Medicare/Medicaid.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
obviously biased news sources (*cough* Fox *cough*)
Faith in humanity restored! Lol, yeah I hate Fox News too :P
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Quote from: ihasfrozen on November 03, 2013, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Socialism = centralised regulation of inter human business. Interfering in free market. Forcing people to do things they do not want to be done to them, like forcing them to purchase or offer mandatory health insurance. Obama is not making the market more free for everyone, he is making it more socialised, more regulated. He is a socialist. In my eyes it makes him either naive* or a crook, as this is how I categorise adults who advocate socialism.
* a polite way of saying 'moron'.
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 09:42:29 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on November 03, 2013, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Socialism = centralised regulation of inter human business. Interfering in free market. Forcing people to do things they do not want to be done to them, like forcing them to purchase or offer mandatory health insurance. Obama is not making the market more free for everyone, he is making it more socialised, more regulated. He is a socialist. In my eyes it makes him either naive* or a crook, as this is how I categorise adults who advocate socialism.
* a polite way of saying 'moron'.
Actually, as we have seen already through Medicare and Medicaid (which I already mentioned), insurance through the government is more cost-effective than private businesses. Why? Because the amount of resources lost to government bureaucracy is less than the money taken by the super rich who own the businesses. Oh, and yeah, how dare a president look out for the well being of his people by providing them with health insurance at an affordable rate by creating a marketplace in which private business must compete with the services a government can provide? What a jerk (/sarcasm). And you are definitely right, just because he has different opinions and ideas than you, he's a moron (also /sarcasm).
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
I'm a tad confused as to how they are related... :o lol
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
Creating a marketplace is not the same as creating the idea of capitalism and marketplaces. You should know that, he is a socialist, remember. I also noticed that you skipped over the entire point of my post or are you just naive*? ;)
Quote from: Taysby on November 03, 2013, 10:24:10 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 06:30:48 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 09:42:29 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on November 03, 2013, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Socialism = centralised regulation of inter human business. Interfering in free market. Forcing people to do things they do not want to be done to them, like forcing them to purchase or offer mandatory health insurance. Obama is not making the market more free for everyone, he is making it more socialised, more regulated. He is a socialist. In my eyes it makes him either naive* or a crook, as this is how I categorise adults who advocate socialism.
* a polite way of saying 'moron'.
Actually, as we have seen already through Medicare and Medicaid (which I already mentioned), insurance through the government is more cost-effective than private businesses. Why? Because the amount of resources lost to government bureaucracy is less than the money taken by the super rich who own the businesses. Oh, and yeah, how dare a president look out for the well being of his people by providing them with health insurance at an affordable rate by creating a marketplace in which private business must compete with the services a government can provide? What a jerk (/sarcasm). And you are definitely right, just because he has different opinions and ideas than you, he's a moron (also /sarcasm).
The rich people who are in charge take a very small percentage of the profit.m let's say a business has 1 million people signed up for it. That's reasonable to say, isn't it? Each person pays about $200 a month, on average (I think. Tell me if I'm wrong). That's $200 million dollars of intake a month. 10 people take a $750 thousand dollar salary more than everyone else. The business still takes in about $190 million dollars, and that pays the "filthy rich"'s salary for the entire year. They don't take tons and tons of money. They take what you hink is a gigantic amount of money, but in comparison, it's not really that big.
If they take so little answer me this question: Why does 1% of the population have 99% of the wealth?
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 11:17:01 PM
Quote from: Taysby on November 03, 2013, 10:24:10 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 06:30:48 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 09:42:29 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on November 03, 2013, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Socialism = centralised regulation of inter human business. Interfering in free market. Forcing people to do things they do not want to be done to them, like forcing them to purchase or offer mandatory health insurance. Obama is not making the market more free for everyone, he is making it more socialised, more regulated. He is a socialist. In my eyes it makes him either naive* or a crook, as this is how I categorise adults who advocate socialism.
* a polite way of saying 'moron'.
Actually, as we have seen already through Medicare and Medicaid (which I already mentioned), insurance through the government is more cost-effective than private businesses. Why? Because the amount of resources lost to government bureaucracy is less than the money taken by the super rich who own the businesses. Oh, and yeah, how dare a president look out for the well being of his people by providing them with health insurance at an affordable rate by creating a marketplace in which private business must compete with the services a government can provide? What a jerk (/sarcasm). And you are definitely right, just because he has different opinions and ideas than you, he's a moron (also /sarcasm).
The rich people who are in charge take a very small percentage of the profit.m let's say a business has 1 million people signed up for it. That's reasonable to say, isn't it? Each person pays about $200 a month, on average (I think. Tell me if I'm wrong). That's $200 million dollars of intake a month. 10 people take a $750 thousand dollar salary more than everyone else. The business still takes in about $190 million dollars, and that pays the "filthy rich"'s salary for the entire year. They don't take tons and tons of money. They take what you hink is a gigantic amount of money, but in comparison, it's not really that big.
If they take so little answer me this question: Why does 1% of the population have 99% of the wealth?
I haven't read this thread but in regards to the 1% owning 99% of the wealth it's a simple twi word answer: hard work those 1% worked their butts off in high school university and life to get where they are today. That's why they're there
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 03, 2013, 11:19:54 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 11:17:01 PM
Quote from: Taysby on November 03, 2013, 10:24:10 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 06:30:48 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 09:42:29 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on November 03, 2013, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 12:05:28 AM
Something that has never made sense to me: People claim Obamacare is so expensive millions won't be able to pay for it and yet it is going to cost millions and billions of dollars of tax dollars. If it's so expensive, wouldn't it be able pay for itself? And if it were to cost us millions in tax dollars, wouldn't it be cheaper for those who are paying for it?
Bureaucracy is not free. How much do you thing that failure of a website costs? They apparently hired consultants from Google and Oracle, the most expensive people on the planet. What makes it expensive is the government waste, and it makes perfect sense. It has happened over the last 150 years of failed implementations of socialism, and it will happen again. And over and over people will fail to understand why. Morons.
Why do you keep calling a marketplace of private insurance companies socialist?
Socialism = centralised regulation of inter human business. Interfering in free market. Forcing people to do things they do not want to be done to them, like forcing them to purchase or offer mandatory health insurance. Obama is not making the market more free for everyone, he is making it more socialised, more regulated. He is a socialist. In my eyes it makes him either naive* or a crook, as this is how I categorise adults who advocate socialism.
* a polite way of saying 'moron'.
Actually, as we have seen already through Medicare and Medicaid (which I already mentioned), insurance through the government is more cost-effective than private businesses. Why? Because the amount of resources lost to government bureaucracy is less than the money taken by the super rich who own the businesses. Oh, and yeah, how dare a president look out for the well being of his people by providing them with health insurance at an affordable rate by creating a marketplace in which private business must compete with the services a government can provide? What a jerk (/sarcasm). And you are definitely right, just because he has different opinions and ideas than you, he's a moron (also /sarcasm).
The rich people who are in charge take a very small percentage of the profit.m let's say a business has 1 million people signed up for it. That's reasonable to say, isn't it? Each person pays about $200 a month, on average (I think. Tell me if I'm wrong). That's $200 million dollars of intake a month. 10 people take a $750 thousand dollar salary more than everyone else. The business still takes in about $190 million dollars, and that pays the "filthy rich"'s salary for the entire year. They don't take tons and tons of money. They take what you hink is a gigantic amount of money, but in comparison, it's not really that big.
If they take so little answer me this question: Why does 1% of the population have 99% of the wealth?
I haven't read this thread but in regards to the 1% owning 99% of the wealth it's a simple twi word answer: hard work those 1% worked their butts off in high school university and life to get where they are today. That's why they're there
Taysby claimed that businesses don't make a lot of profit. That is why I asked the question. I should have said "How"
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 03, 2013, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
I'm a tad confused as to how they are related... :o lol
Market, the same as gravity, cannot be created by the likes of Obama. It is simply stupid. All Obama did was reduced the market and crippled it.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 03, 2013, 09:16:36 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
Creating a marketplace is not the same as creating the idea of capitalism and marketplaces. You should know that, he is a socialist, remember. I also noticed that you skipped over the entire point of my post or are you just naive*? ;)
You create a market by creating a new product category, Obama did not create anything, he only destroys via regulations. But you probably consider destroying the cheap insurance and depriving the poor of health insurance trivial, dont you. Who cares if millions suffer, our goal is glorious so let's sacrifice some people on the way. A million here or there, who cares, not the socialists and Obama, they believe means are justified by their goals.
Scum.
Yes, because if you read my post I rambled on about destroying the poor as part of a master plan where the means justify the ends (/sarcasm). I'm done with this, to quote George Carlin:
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
The size of these quote chains!
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 04, 2013, 07:02:21 AM
Yes, because if you read my post I rambled on about destroying the poor as part of a master plan where the means justify the ends (/sarcasm). I'm done with this, to quote George Carlin:
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Oh, you always do it (exploit the poor by heavy taxation) for their own good. Your goals are glorious and holy, there is no evil master plan of course. It's just that implementing socialism and regulating the market always, for the last 150 years or so, ends up the same: crappy service and ever increasing bureaucracy and costs.
Let me rephrase St Thomas: It is human to make mistakes. It is idiocy to make the same mistake over and over again.
Quote from: Piotr on November 04, 2013, 04:17:30 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 03, 2013, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: Piotr on November 03, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
He created a market, how great. Did he also create gravity, lol?
I'm a tad confused as to how they are related... :o lol
Market, the same as gravity, cannot be created by the likes of Obama. It is simply stupid. All Obama did was reduced the market and crippled it.
Bad example, as big businesses can create market but no-one can create gravity. Bad example, but I get what you're saying ;)